Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL]

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, was as fluent as ever. I am just slightly shocked that he thought that the Government, moving with their usual precision and expedition, got through the previous business in a reasonable amount of time so that we would be ready for this Bill—on which we shall proceed with the same degree of expedition and precision. I have not the slightest doubt that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, will be making his full—I emphasise the word full—contribution to that expedition. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, identifies that there should be an ecosystem-based approach to the work we are involved with in the Bill. Of course we agree with that; that is the intention behind the Bill. We will take that into account in designating a network of sites. However, like the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, we have the greatest difficulty in accepting that some percentage of the sea could be identified at this stage. I realise that I am treading on dangerous ground by debating the subject of national parks with the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, but if he is saying that there was a full vision of every aspect of the United Kingdom that would designated as a national park when the national parks were introduced, I can only disagree with him. That is not so. It is certainly the case that the principles behind the concept of the national park were identified, and it is certainly the case that the Government made relatively early and rapid steps in the designation of certain national parks, but, as the noble Lord knows as well as anyone in the Chamber, the designation of national parks is ongoing. The same principle, even in extenso, applies to the sea. We are not able arbitrarily to identify a percentage of the sea that needs designation and protection in these terms. We are dealing with an evolving situation. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, is emphatic that there should be a scientific basis to this work. He accords with that. It will be recognised that science evolves. We are dealing in this situation with at least two dimensions that have great fluidity. "Fluidity" is perhaps the wrong word to use when trying to describe the sea, so I shall withdraw it. Two dimensions have a great deal of variability. The first is advances in science that will take us beyond the positions we can foresee at this stage. If we were operating within the parameters of science in this year of grace 2009, it is likely that, even within the timetable that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has set, we would find ourselves constrained by such a concept. The other variable aspect is the sea itself and the demands that are made on it. I believe that the noble Lord must recognise that the Government, in setting the Bill out in the way that we have, share entirely those objectives about what is to be achieved. However, we are seeking to avoid the very rigidities to which he is trying to direct us by this amendment. It is not the case that experts agree on what proportion of the sea needs to be designated. There is considerable debate about those issues and experts have given different figures. The noble Lord must give the Government credit for wanting to produce legislation that will be effective for a substantial period. To have a prescribed target of this kind on the face of the Bill would therefore be very limiting. Now, what about the timetable? Ah, the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, will get me on the third point. I hope I am standing on relatively firm ground regarding scientific and public opinion, but what about the fact that we have a timetable for the Bill? The Bill sets out that Ministers will have to report to Parliament on progress. They will have to start reporting in 2012 to show how much progress has been made with the Bill once it becomes an Act of Parliament, and they will have to report at least every six years thereafter. The report will highlight the achievement of the network and include not only details of the marine conservation zones designated but also any further steps that could be taken to achieve a network of conservation sites. I want to defend the Bill as it stands against an amendment that would be crippling in its limitations. I may not take the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, with me every step of the way, and I am not asking him to subscribe to such an advanced position as that of the Government, but I hope that I am taking him with me in relation to his anxiety about being too prescriptive, as the amendment is. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.