Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL]

I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions to the debate. I was delighted to hear my noble friend say that the current staff are proud to be civil servants. When one hears rather ridiculous remarks about civil servants being made by people who should know better, I am glad to stand here and say how much I have enjoyed working with civil servants over the years and what a huge contribution they make. The designation of the Marine Management Organisation as a non-departmental public body is a visible sign of the status of that organisation. I respect the decision of the Welsh Assembly Government to carry out directly the functions that are akin to those of the MMO. However, in the English context, to retain the MMO functions in my department, or to place them with an executive agency, would not accord the right status to this important body. I return to the discussion we had during the first two Committee days when emphasis was laid time and again on the critical importance of the MMO and the importance of it being able to make its own decisions within the guidance and general objectives that have been laid down. I think that non-departmental body status is the right status for the organisation. I say to my noble friend that, as a non-departmental public body, its staff will be public servants, not Crown servants, which is very much the usual position. He referred to a number of organisations staffed by Crown servants. However, my understanding is that of the 1,000 or so non-departmental public bodies, only three are staffed by Crown servants on a permanent basis. Their designation as public servants rather than Crown servants reflects the independent nature of non-departmental public bodies. It allows those staff a measure of independence and gives them the ability to speak more freely than would otherwise be the case. It also gives them the flexibility that noble Lords have required of the MMO in our previous debates. As public servants, MMO staff will in practice be treated very much the same as existing MFA staff. They will be transferred to the MMO on the same contractual terms and conditions of employment and any subsequent changes to their terms and conditions will require the approval of the Secretary of State. They will be entitled to trade union membership. I am glad to report to the noble Baroness that their pensions will be retained in the Civil Service pension scheme. They will be able to apply for Civil Service vacancies in the same way as other civil servants. In short, there is no reason for MMO staff to feel disadvantaged by virtue of becoming public servants. My noble friend, fairly, asked a number of questions. He asked what would happen to MFA staff who simply did not wish to transfer to the Marine Management Organisation. As staff will transfer to the MMO with their contractual terms and conditions of employment preserved, there should be no reason to object to the transfer, and it is expected that all staff will transfer. Should any member of staff choose not to do so, their contract of employment with the MFA will be terminated. They would have been deemed to have resigned their post. I understand that this is the usual form in which transfers to NDPBs are effected. I very much understand the question of relocation. I always regret leaks, and I can well understand the concern of staff when they read stories in a local newspaper about the location. I am not in a position to give any more information at this stage. I have checked, and the answer is that we will announce this when all the information and evidence have been carefully considered. It will be announced in Parliament in due course. Frankly, the shortlisted locations all would have made a very good home for the MMO, and this has been a very difficult decision. I understand that this is a very important decision for the staff involved, and I can only regret that some kind of allegation has appeared in a local newspaper. I understand people’s concern on this. Those staff who are unable or unwilling to relocate raise a different issue from the first point asked by my noble friend about staff who object to transferring to the MMO. Relocation is a separate issue. Those staff who are unable or unwilling to relocate will be placed on my department’s redeployment register. This will give those staff first refusal on any vacancies in the Defra network. In addition, those staff will have preferential access to other jobs across Whitehall. The MFA has appointed a resettlement officer, who will help staff to prepare for redeployment. Staff will receive training and help with CV writing, for example. After a period of six months, any staff who have not found an alternative job will be reassigned to Defra. There is no question of compulsory redundancies as a direct result of the relocation. My noble friend asked about staff losing immunity on becoming staff of the MMO. My understanding is that, as a general principle, civil servants enjoy immunity only under a specific circumstance for which Crown immunity applies. There is no general immunity for civil servants, so we do not think that there is a need to provide protection for individual employees working for the MMO generally. Such decisions would be taken on behalf of the MMO, so any potential claim would lie against the MMO and not an individual officer. Specific immunity is given in the Bill to marine enforcement officers and other enforcement officers, who need to be protected when they carry out inspections and investigations at sea and on land, so long as they are acting lawfully within their powers. Otherwise, their freedom to perform their duties would be hampered by fear of legal action being taken against them. Even if sued, if MMO employees are acting in the course of their duties, the MMO would be vicariously liable for their actions. I hope that I have answered the questions—