Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL]

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 28 January 2009, in the House of Lords.

Marine and Coastal Access Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage third day. Clauses 23 to 42 agreed to. Schedules 3 and 4 agreed to. Clause 43 under consideration.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

707 c252-311,320-36

Session

2008-09

Department

Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Marine and Coastal Access Bill (HL). Explanatory Notes HL Bill 1-EN also published.
Thursday, 4 December 2008
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Byford | 707 c335 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness responds, I totally accept what the Minister says: we are all trying despe...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c334-5 (Link to this contribution) This is a good group with which to end our deliberations today. It gets down to the nitty-gritty of ...

Show all contributions (151)

Baroness Hamwee | 707 c333-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that, but nevertheless I seek to understand how it will work with the other clause...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c333 (Link to this contribution) The Bill is helpful in this respect. Clause 42(4) states that, "““‘policy authority’ means any of th...

Baroness Hamwee | 707 c332-3 (Link to this contribution) I had worked out the printing error earlier. We are all accustomed to hunting round on the Marshalle...

Baroness Hamwee | 707 c332 (Link to this contribution) Clause 43: Preparation and coming into force of statement Amendment 85B 85B: Clause 43, page 22, l...

Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 707 c332 (Link to this contribution) Before I call the next group of amendments, I have to inform the House that there is a printing erro...

Baroness Hamwee | 707 c332 (Link to this contribution) I will certainly withdraw the amendment. The determination of the Government to ensure consistency i...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c336 (Link to this contribution) Clause 43 says: "““An MPS may only be prepared by—""(a) all the policy authorities, acting jointly,”...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c329 (Link to this contribution) I was attempting to respond to the debate, which has essentially been about renewables. The marine p...

Baroness Hamwee | 707 c329-30 (Link to this contribution) In moving Amendment 85AA, I will also speak to Amendments 85AB and 89AA. This is an almost seamless...

Baroness Hamwee | 707 c329 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 85AA 85AA: Clause 42, page 22, line 2, after ““MPS”” insert ““or in another MPS””

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c328 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that that is what the noble Lord said. I thought that he meant the power to give conse...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c328 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister, because I was just going on to say that the phrasing in Clause 42(1)(a)— "““co...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 707 c329 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the noble Lord for intervening, but I have been thinking about what the Minister just...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c328-9 (Link to this contribution) I am encouraged by the Minister’s comment, because it removes some anxiety that the marine policy st...

Earl Cathcart | 707 c330-1 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness raises a number of important points. I am sure there is no intention on the Gover...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c331-2 (Link to this contribution) Again, this continues our discussion of marine policy statements. Perhaps I may say to the noble Bar...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c327 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps because we are post-dinner, the Committee has, at times, seemed to be all over the place and...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c325-7 (Link to this contribution) Life has moved on a bit since the committee met, because with the takeover of British Energy by EDF ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c327-8 (Link to this contribution) I sense that this almost takes us back to Clause 2. Here we see the dilemma. Noble Lords are not sat...

Baroness Byford | 707 c322-3 (Link to this contribution) In that case I will certainly rise to support my noble friend’s two amendments. While I accept the c...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 707 c323 (Link to this contribution) The furthest that I could go towards agreeing with the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, is to say that w...

Lord Greenway | 707 c323 (Link to this contribution) One of the problems with this amendment—I have raised this before—is that a lot of the planned energ...

Baroness Young of Old Scone | 707 c323-4 (Link to this contribution) It may seem a bit novel, but I should like to address the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor o...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c324-5 (Link to this contribution) This has been an extremely interesting and wide-ranging debate. I wondered how the noble Baroness, L...

Baroness Byford | 707 c325 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that. I see a balance, too, but I believe that nuclear could play ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 707 c325 (Link to this contribution) I certainly accept that the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, was not suggesting Hinkley as the only site...

Baroness Hamwee | 707 c322 (Link to this contribution) I think perhaps I had better sit down now.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c322 (Link to this contribution) All I can say is that the noble Baroness has made a very good start.

Baroness Hamwee | 707 c322 (Link to this contribution) It will be welcome if I support the noble Lord, but it might not be as welcome in half an hour. Who ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c322 (Link to this contribution) I confirm for the noble Baroness that we too have had our debates on lists. Her entry at this stage ...

Lord Tyler | 707 c310 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the support of the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart. This is an important part of the Bil...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c310 (Link to this contribution) Based on my understanding of the agreement reached by Ministers that has led to the statement, along...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c320-1 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 85A would insert a little more detail into the Bill. I am very grateful to the Minister fo...

Baroness Hamwee | 707 c321-2 (Link to this contribution) I am very conscious that, having missed the whole of the Committee stage so far because of the clash...

Lord Tyler | 707 c310-1 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister. I am also grateful for his statement that a great deal of consultative discuss...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c320 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 85A 85A: Clause 42, page 21, line 38, at end insert— ““( ) In determining the policies th...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c309-10 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that I want to go into the detail of the discussions. Clause 46 sets out the circumsta...

Baroness Byford | 707 c309 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the Minister that we have come to an important part of the Bill and I am only sorry tha...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c306-9 (Link to this contribution) I am conscious of the time, but we have reached Part 3 and it would be appropriate for me to make a ...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c309 (Link to this contribution) Is that the reason for Clause 46, which concerns the withdrawal of the devolved authorities from suc...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c309 (Link to this contribution) It is a good question. Essentially, the marine policy statement will always apply to the whole UK ma...

Lord Glentoran | 707 c303 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord again for that explanation. This is just an aside, but I have sailed up and d...

Lord Tyler | 707 c303 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 85ZA 85ZA: Clause 42, page 21, line 34, after ““development”” insert ““and setting the fr...

Lord Tyler | 707 c303-5 (Link to this contribution) In moving Amendment 85ZA, obviously I need to refer to a number of other amendments in this mammoth ...

Earl Cathcart | 707 c305-6 (Link to this contribution) With this group of amendments we are moving into Part 3, Marine Planning. All the following groups o...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 707 c303 (Link to this contribution) The negotiations are about co-operation on the fisheries policy. Obviously, the Irish have their int...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 707 c302 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord. Obviously, the fisheries issue is extremely important and this is a step for...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 707 c302 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness will be reassured to learn that I asked to look at a map of the Bristol Channel b...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 707 c302 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister tell us who the one objection was from and what the implication is for the fisherme...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 707 c301-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken on this amendment, although they have slightly taken me...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 707 c301 (Link to this contribution) The amendment is of great interest to me as a Welsh Member of this House. I deduce from it that Clau...

Lord Glentoran | 707 c300-1 (Link to this contribution) I appear at your Lordships’ Dispatch Box wearing my Welsh hat. This is a short, probing amendment t...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 707 c298-300 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Renton of Mount Harry, has done a tremendous amount, in his part of the world w...

Lord Glentoran | 707 c300 (Link to this contribution) Clause 41: Welsh zone Amendment 83 83: Clause 41, page 21, line 6, leave out subsection (2)

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c297 (Link to this contribution) I fear that the noble Lord’s namesake, the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Coity, might have considerable...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 707 c297 (Link to this contribution) Fortunately, my noble friend is not in his place at present. For that, I thank small mercies on this...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c297 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. This is an important area, because a lock is for one p...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c298 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his response and, in particular, for his comments on my amendments. This is...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 707 c298 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to prolong this matter, but it seems that we are delineating marine areas within which...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c292-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, for giving us an opportunity t...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 707 c294-6 (Link to this contribution) We have moved toward inshore waters, yet I am still in deep water regarding these amendments and the...

Lord Renton of Mount Harry | 707 c293-4 (Link to this contribution) I speak with some trepidation, not having spoken about this Bill before. However, I was for 10 years...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 707 c288-90 (Link to this contribution) My note indicates that I should express gratitude to the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, for movin...

Duke of Montrose | 707 c290 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for coming back on these points. The main thing that I was focusing on, althoug...

Duke of Montrose | 707 c287 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 81 81: Clause 39, page 19, line 39, leave out subsection (2)

Duke of Montrose | 707 c287-8 (Link to this contribution) I move Amendment 81 on behalf of my noble friend Lord Taylor. This is a probing amendment to clarify...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 707 c290 (Link to this contribution) Clause 40: UK marine area Amendment 81A 81A: Clause 40, page 20, line 33, leave out ““high water s...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 707 c290-2 (Link to this contribution) With this amendment and Amendment 81B, we move to a discussion of what should constitute the marine ...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 707 c290 (Link to this contribution) That is an entirely fair point and I apologise for not commenting on that. I am assured that everyth...

Duke of Montrose | 707 c290 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that further clarification. It is rather useful to know how the clause will...

Lord Rosser | 707 c287 (Link to this contribution) Would my noble friend accept that, if the status of the staff transferring to the MMO is to be chang...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c287 (Link to this contribution) I want to make the position clear. I was referring to relocation and to staff who are not able to re...

Lord Rosser | 707 c286-7 (Link to this contribution) The only comment I would make back to my noble friend—I shall not pursue it further—is that, in effe...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c286 (Link to this contribution) Has the Minister counted staffing of the MFA, if the MFA is being transferred and incorporated? It w...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c286 (Link to this contribution) I do not think I have. I shall certainly find out and let the noble Lord know. Work is still being u...

Lord Rosser | 707 c286 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for that reply. As his final answer indicated, the great bulk of the staff i...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c286 (Link to this contribution) Of course not. I had responsibility for the Child Support Agency and the work that led to the settin...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 707 c284 (Link to this contribution) I may be wrong but I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, mentioned what would happen to t...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c284-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions to the debate. I was delighted to hear my noble...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c285 (Link to this contribution) I asked for some numbers. Can the noble Lord give an approximate idea of the number of Crown servant...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c286 (Link to this contribution) The main purpose of setting up the MMO is not to rationalise staff numbers. I accept the point that ...

Lord Tyler | 707 c283 (Link to this contribution) We on these Benches also look forward with interest to clarification from the Minister. On the issue...

Lord Rosser | 707 c281-2 (Link to this contribution) I want to talk about the effect of the Bill as it stands on the staff of the present Marine and Fish...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c283 (Link to this contribution) I am interested in the amendments to which the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, has so ably spoken. I look f...

Lord Rosser | 707 c281 (Link to this contribution) Schedule 3: Transfer schemes Amendment 77A 77A: Schedule 3, page 220, line 29, after ““employee”” ...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 707 c280 (Link to this contribution) The Minister needs to recognise the political implications here. It was rather funny to read in the ...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 707 c280 (Link to this contribution) I certainly agree with the noble Baroness about the political implications, but the point that I see...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 707 c279-80 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister and to other noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I share t...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c280 (Link to this contribution) I will look into the specific matter that the noble Lord has raised, but the general principle is th...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c278-9 (Link to this contribution) The noble Duke asks about marine conservation zones. The devolved Administration will become the pla...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 707 c279 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Wallace will speak for Scotland but, as far as Wales is concerned, I cannot see...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c266 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 72 seeks to explore why the Government have retained the flexibility to make loans on a no...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c266-7 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has raised an interesting point. Clause 33 states: "““A loan under this section may b...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c266 (Link to this contribution) Clause 33: Government loans Amendment 72 72: Clause 33, page 16, line 26, leave out subsections (2...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c266 (Link to this contribution) Not that I am aware of, because the MMO's main responsibilities will be in relation to England. It w...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 707 c266 (Link to this contribution) Are the functions and their attendant costs being transferred from the devolved Administrations, or ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c265 (Link to this contribution) Yes, of course, but there would also have to be the appropriate reporting and monitoring by my depar...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c265 (Link to this contribution) Am I correct in thinking that as these organisations will be transferred with their existing budgets...

Lord Tyler | 707 c265 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I may have missed a point during earlier discussion bu...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c262-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that explanation of his position. I accept that a multi-path approach has a...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c263 (Link to this contribution) Clause 30: Grants Debate on whether Clause 30 should stand part of the Bill. On the money front, ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c263-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for allowing us to discuss Clause 30 and the funding of the MMO. Cle...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c262 (Link to this contribution) That is a helpful intervention by the noble Lord, and I will certainly consider all those matters. I...

Lord Kingsland | 707 c261-2 (Link to this contribution) I might say that I think that the Minister has given a well judged response to the questions that th...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c262 (Link to this contribution) I am certainly with noble Lords on the importance of ensuring that this organisation comes to its de...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c262 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that the Minister understands our motivation and purpose so well, and I thank him for t...

Baroness Byford | 707 c261 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend responds, I want to apologise to him for not being able to get to my place to...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c261 (Link to this contribution) I do not have the information to respond to the first point and I am not sure to what extent it can ...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 707 c271 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 74 74: Clause 35, page 18, line 8, at end insert ““and, insofar as any such directions ap...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 707 c274 (Link to this contribution) I will not go into all the issues that my noble friend the Duke of Montrose has explained so clearly...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 707 c273-4 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendments 75, 77 and 79, which refer to the situation in Wales. What I have to say...

Duke of Montrose | 707 c272-3 (Link to this contribution) This Bill is highly complex, as the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, has just told us. That i...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 707 c271-2 (Link to this contribution) I shall also speak to Amendments 76 and 78. I am sure that my noble friend Lord Livsey of Talgarth w...

Duke of Montrose | 707 c278 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the Minister will clarify a couple of things for me. As I understand it, the Scottish Parlia...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c275-8 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that we are all grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, and other noble Lords for allowi...

Lord Cameron of Lochbroom | 707 c274-5 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support Amendments 74 and 76 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness. It i...

Lord Greenway | 707 c270-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to those who supported the amendment. I do not think that I doubted for a moment that ...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c267 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his response to this probing amendment. I am not entirely sure tha...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c267 (Link to this contribution) I can do more than that. I can send the noble Lord a copy of Managing Public Money, Her Majesty's Tr...

Lord Greenway | 707 c268 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 35 deals with directions and guidance by the Secretary of State. I refer specifically to t...

Lord Greenway | 707 c268 (Link to this contribution) Clause 35: Directions by the Secretary of State Amendment 73 73: Clause 35, page 18, line 3, after...

Lord Tyler | 707 c269 (Link to this contribution) I have some sympathy with the noble Earl and I look forward with interest to the Minister’s response...

Earl Cathcart | 707 c268-9 (Link to this contribution) I am almost lost for words, not—I hasten to add—having listened to the noble Lord’s amendment, but b...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c270 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken. The intention behind the amendment is to clarify that ...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 707 c269 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, that there is a slight ambiguity in the drafting of the ...

Lord Greenway | 707 c255 (Link to this contribution) I support the principle behind the amendments. It is quite correct to say that the Joint Committee f...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c255-9 (Link to this contribution) This has been a short but interesting debate. I am in no doubt whatever of the view of the Committee...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c259 (Link to this contribution) I am a little concerned by the phrase in Clause 23(2), which makes, "““research available to any per...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c259 (Link to this contribution) Looking at the drafting, the noble Lord has raised an important point. The intention clearly is that...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 707 c259 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to the Minister’s long and comprehensive answer but I wonder how this will work on t...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c259-60 (Link to this contribution) It is not easy to give a one-line answer to that. It will depend on the research being considered, a...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c260 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my noble friend on taking us back to the debate about the relationship between the Ma...

Lord Davies of Coity | 707 c260 (Link to this contribution) I was extremely pleased by what my noble friend said in response to the question of the noble Lord, ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c260 (Link to this contribution) I knew I should not have used the word ““blueprint””. I cannot say to the noble Baroness that there ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 707 c260 (Link to this contribution) In his full reply, for which I thank him, the Minister mentioned that, to use his words, there is a ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 707 c253-4 (Link to this contribution) In speaking to the two amendments that I have in this group, I first thank the noble Lord, Lord Tayl...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c252-3 (Link to this contribution) This is a probing amendment to call into question the type and scale of research that the MMO can un...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c252 (Link to this contribution) Clause 23: Research Amendment 70 70: Clause 23, page 13, line 5, leave out subsection (1)

Lord Kingsland | 707 c254-5 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendments in this group. They pick up, in a more practical manner, on a theme t...

Baroness Hamwee | 707 c336 (Link to this contribution) I well appreciate that the Government cannot require agreement in legislation or in fact. The Minist...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c336 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to be too precise about the timetable. Clearly, 2010 is a critical date.

Baroness Hamwee | 707 c336 (Link to this contribution) It sounds like a good year. There is a lot that I have not been able to take into account—it is in H...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c329 (Link to this contribution) It has been useful to have that further elaboration, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of ...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 707 c297-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for saying that he broadly supports the Government’s approach on tha...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 707 c265 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is absolutely right. I assure him that we will ensure that does not happen. I am not ...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 707 c267 (Link to this contribution) It is never too late to learn. I look forward to receiving the document as soon as the Minister find...

Earl Cathcart | 707 c334 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for tabling the amendments. The most important is the first in t...

Lord Glentoran | 707 c303 (Link to this contribution) I, too, thank the noble Lord for his explanation. I am not entirely happy about his comments on inte...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 707 c298 (Link to this contribution) I did not think that we would get very far with this part of the Bill without the issue of the devol...

Subjects

Disclosure of information

Conditions of employment

Devolved matters

Costs

Conservation

Coastal areas

Climate change

Devolution

Civil servants

Finance

Fisheries