Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL]

I am sure that we are all grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, and other noble Lords for allowing us to have a discussion about some interesting devolution matters. Before I respond to the amendments, I will say a little about the general principles that govern where we are. I recognise that this is a complex area and, if some things are not clear at the end of our debate, I am happy to follow up our discussions on devolution outside the Chamber to ensure that we are all clear about these matters. The Bill in essence recognises that the marine environment involves a complex mix of devolved and non-devolved, or reserved, matters and its intention is to respect the provisions of the current devolution settlement. The strategic framework for marine planning, which it introduces, has now been agreed by all four Administrations—a development since the publication of the draft marine Bill in April 2008. The provision in the draft Bill that restricted the marine policy statement in form and impact in Scotland drew criticism from several witnesses to the Joint Committee. The committee believed that it was essential that the marine policy statement and plans had the active support and approval of all the devolved Administrations; indeed, it regarded as imperative the production of an agreed marine policy statement that has consensus across the devolved Administrations, including Scotland. Subsequent to the Joint Committee’s report and the work of the joint ministerial committee, I believe that we have achieved a satisfactory outcome. There is no doubt that the Scottish Executive will look for the further legislative devolution of new powers in areas such as marine planning and nature conservation where they feel that governance could be as appropriate from Scotland as from this House. The UK Government have not agreed to that, but we have agreed to the devolution of new functions in the Bill in a form of executive devolution. That allows for a more coherent delivery of the common objectives in the Bill that we all share and ensures the real engagement of those who are closest to the waters in question and the protection of key reserved interests, such as oil, gas and shipping. The UK Government will legislate in the Bill for England, for the waters around England, for the offshore waters around the UK and for certain functions within the territorial waters of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland where we have agreed between us to do so. That means that not all the original proposals in the draft Bill will apply to the whole of the UK. Where proposals do not apply—for example, in the territorial waters of Scotland and Northern Ireland—there are proposals for legislation to be brought forward by the relevant Administrations to deliver similar reforms and systems as appropriate. Most of the provisions of the Bill extend to Wales with the agreement of the Welsh Assembly Government, but in some instances the Bill reflects their wishes for different delivery mechanisms—for example, on inshore fisheries management, where they do not intend to create inshore fisheries and conservation authorities but intend to deliver the same measure in another way. The Bill also delivers framework powers for the creation of a coastal path in Wales. This will allow the Assembly Government to bring forward measures which are tailored to meet the specific circumstances of Wales and which take account of work that is under way under their coastal access improvement programme. Under the Bill, devolved Administrations become the planning authority for the relevant offshore region under a form of executive devolution. That means that their marine plans will be subject to agreement by the Secretary of State before they can impact on decisions across the breadth of marine interests. Scottish Ministers also become the designating authority for marine conservation zones in the offshore region. Again, proposed designations are subject to agreement by the Secretary of State. For Wales, the Bill takes the opportunity to create a Welsh fisheries zone out to the median line. This delivers parity with Scotland and Northern Ireland, which already have fishery zones for the coherent delivery of fisheries management across the inshore and offshore regions. I know from talking to a number of noble Lords, both in the Chamber and outside, that there is a perception that we have here a rather fragmented and complex system, which perhaps does not deliver the benefits that the Bill was intended to provide. I disagree with that. Essentially, the Bill recognises the reality of the devolution settlement but it contains provisions to make sure that, as far as possible, there is a consistent approach. I emphasise to the Committee the importance of the joint ministerial statement in the autumn, because it sets out a good framework for making sure that this works from a UK point of view. Amendments 74 to 77 propose changes to Clauses 35 and 36 to require the Secretary of State to consult Scottish Ministers before issuing directions or guidance to the MMO that might apply to the Scottish inshore or offshore regions and to consult Welsh Ministers before issuing directions or guidance to the MMO that might apply to the Welsh inshore or offshore regions. I understand the purpose behind these amendments, which is to keep the devolved Administrations fully involved in delivering the Bill through the MMO. We would normally expect the MMO to operate without direction. This clause allows directions to be given where appropriate, but it would not be normal practice for directions or guidance to be given to the MMO in relation to Scottish inshore areas where Marine Scotland, the Scottish equivalent of the MMO, will operate—the noble Duke made that point—or the Welsh inshore areas, which will be governed not by an agency but by Welsh Ministers and officials acting for them. Directions or guidance in the offshore region could relate to reserved matters, but we would not expect that to be normal practice. Shipping and oil and gas exploration, for example, are reserved matters, as is defence. Nature conservation enforcement in the Welsh offshore region will be enforced by the MMO, as will licensing of dredging. If matters relating to implementation of EU or international obligations required the MMO to take a co-ordinating role on behalf of the UK Government—it is the UK Government who have to accept that responsibility—we would expect the MMO to undertake consultation with whomever would be affected in the devolved Administrations throughout the UK area. It will be made clear in the objectives set for the MMO that normal good practice behaviour on consultation will apply. I can assure Members of the Committee that this is already the practice of existing marine and fisheries agencies whose functions the MMO will subsume. We continue to expect consultation to take place with colleagues from whichever Administration might be affected by the guidance issued. For example, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has regular meetings with ministerial colleagues from the other Administrations on fisheries and marine matters. We work closely to agree UK objectives for EU and international negotiations and we have worked closely with the other Administrations on this Bill to secure support for the measures that we are introducing. I am well aware that the Scottish marine Bill has just been subject to consultation in Scotland. My understanding is that it has received widespread support, which is very welcome. Its provisions mirror in large part the provisions of the UK Bill, confirming the support that the Scottish Executive have for the objectives of the Bill. Clearly, where devolved Administrations legislate for themselves, the Government will need to be closely involved to press for coherence across the legislation and to ensure that the proposals do not adversely impact on the UK Government’s responsibilities and objectives. Our position is that we will continue to pursue with the devolved Administrations an integrated approach for the benefit of the marine environment and/or marine users. The noble Lords, Lord Wallace, Lord Greaves and Lord Livsey—although the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, alas, is not here—also proposed changes to Clauses 35 and 36. Their amendments are designed to exclude any body set up under the Scotland Act or the Government of Wales Act 1998 and the Government of Wales Act 2006 from the bodies on which the Secretary of State may call to provide staff facilities or premises to the MMO on a temporary basis to aid transition to the new organisation. The existing functions being transferred into the MMO comprise functions carried out by UK government departments, such as my department, the Department for Transport and the Department of Energy and Climate Change. It is not proposed to transfer into the MMO any functions carried out by Scottish or Welsh statutory bodies—indeed, any functions carried out by the devolved Administrations. In conclusion, I very much understand the complexities of this matter and the need to ensure that the UK Government and the devolved Administrations work together. We will do everything that we can to ensure that that happens. However, the construct of the Bill enables that to happen without the benefit of the amendments.