Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL]

This has been a short but interesting debate. I am in no doubt whatever of the view of the Committee of the need for high-quality science and research to be a critical part of the work of the MMO and for its decisions to be evidence-based and embracing what research and scientific evidence are available. The comprehensive nature of existing marine research and monitoring, along with the possibility of new specific and focused research that the MMO can commission, will furnish it with a strong base for planning and making assessments of particular marine activities. I recognise that noble Lords would like me to give as much detail as possible on how we think that might happen and I will do so. However, when it is established, the MMO will also have to think carefully about this. I would caution against trying to build in too much inflexibility at the moment as, in the end, the MMO will be in a good position to make judgments itself about the range and amount of research that it should commission and the degree to which it should use Defra’s existing research capacity and other matters. Although we debated this only last week, I remind noble Lords that my department’s research budget is a not insignificant amount of money. We also have access to wider marine research carried out by other government departments and the various agencies that come under them. I am thinking of the nature conservation bodies, the devolved Administrations and the Natural Environment Research Council, as well as, of course, universities and marine research centres. There is also collaboration—I very much take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland—with partners in European and other international projects. Therefore, there is a fine base already. Seeing the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, in his place, I should pay tribute to the Plymouth Marine Sciences Partnership as well. We should not underestimate the fact that the sea is a vast, highly complex and expensive environment within which to carry out research and monitoring activities. Therefore, it is not possible for a single organisation to cover all the evidence needs. Science, in relation to the sea, can mean the ocean processes—the physics and chemistry of the sea—and it can mean biology and biodiversity. The ecosystem approach embodies all these aspects, but there are also separate elements, which need to be brought together. We also have to consider the impacts on the marine environment of manmade pressures such as pollution—possibly leading to damage—and, as part of our role in sustainability, the socio-economic impact. There are centres of expertise in all these fields and these pieces of evidence need to be blended together. The work of the Marine and Fisheries Agency shows that this can be done very effectively, as it is able to call on the best available evidence on which to base its decisions. In 2008-09, my department commissioned approximately £2.8 million of research into human activities and related issues. Under the current arrangements, the Marine and Fisheries Agency is a key customer of this research. We anticipate this successful arrangement continuing with the Marine Management Organisation. My department and the MFA have excellent, dedicated advice and research undertaken by the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science. However, our experience is that wider collaboration is the most effective way of best understanding the marine environment. Such collaboration means that there is an excellent track record in the UK. In 2010, the United Kingdom will produce the most comprehensive assessment of the state of its marine environment in the Charting Progress 2 report. This will be achieved through the combined effort of many partners to the marine monitoring and assessment strategy, including many of the organisations that I have already mentioned. However, we want to do more than this. We have recently created the cross-government high-level marine science co-ordinating committee, which will produce a strategy this year to improve further the UK’s marine science and monitoring across the board. The strategy will aim to improve efficiency and address the gaps and long-term needs in the UK’s marine science. It will very much inform some of the decisions that will need to be taken in the future about the research effort in the marine area, so it will be significant in teasing out the areas on which we will have to put more emphasis in the future. What is the role of the MMO? We see it very much as a partner in that work. The point has already been made that we need to avoid duplication, but we need to fill gaps and to ensure that there is a collaborative approach. On one hand, we want to invest as many of our precious resources as can be made available. On the other hand—many noble Lords will know of some of the challenges of research funding—we need to ensure that there is no duplication of effort either. As I said in our earlier debates, the MMO will comprise around 250 staff posts in total. As the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, said, the people who are currently working in the Marine and Fisheries Agency are of a very high calibre and have substantial skills in marine and fisheries science. They will move into the new organisation, and I assure noble Lords that new staff with skills and expertise in marine science and data will also be recruited to the MMO, so it will have a strong science base in house to support its functions and decisions. Some interesting issues have been raised in this debate. The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for example, invited me to construe Clause 23. To an extent, he always anticipates my answer, because, to return to my original point, the clause clearly enables the MMO to carry out and commission research and to work in partnership with other organisations. I strongly suggest to noble Lords that that balance is right; in the end, it is for the MMO to decide. Noble Lords have already emphasised in earlier debates the need for the MMO to act independently, and judgments about research must be one of the elements of that. Equally, however, we can give a steer in guidance. My understanding is that a science blueprint is being developed for the MMO. It is currently envisaged that the MMO will also have a strategy and evidence unit that will comprise staff with the skills and expertise to support and assist the MMO in performing its functions, skills in the statistical interpretation of data in relation to a range of its functions, and specialist skills related to fisheries data, economics and social sciences to support the MMO in its sustainable development objectives. Clause 23 in essence enables the MMO to undertake research if it wants to do so, and gives it the freedom to decide to access a wider body of information and evidence to inform its decisions. In many instances, the MMO’s needs will be met by the dedicated service provided by the Centre for Environment, Fisheries & Aquaculture Science, but there is no restriction on the MMO in carrying out its marine science functions. Equally I stress that if the MMO decides to undertake and commission research itself, it is important that it does not duplicate scientific research in other parts of government, universities or other sectors. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, asked about resources. I mentioned the £37 million that my department already spends per annum on research and monitoring. The MMO will have access to that and if there are gaps—I have already referred to the work that is being undertaken to look at gaps—the MMO will have ready access to the decisions that need to be taken about the Defra commissioned research alongside the research that is there to underpin decisions. These matters will be subject to constant discussion and review in the years ahead. It is not as if the MMO will simply be a recipient of research undertaken by Defra. It will have a key role to play in informing what research should be undertaken. I turn to the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller. She made some general points about the importance of science and research which I tried to address in my opening remarks. Her amendment is designed to ensure that the MMO is empowered to collect data free from other bodies. The Joint Committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, looked into this matter and representations were made to the committee about the cost of marine data. The committee was concerned that the MMO should be adequately funded to secure the data if needed. Of course the MMO will need to use data and it will need to be adequately funded to enable it to access data. That is certainly our intention. The problem we have with the noble Baroness’s amendment is that it would cut across existing arrangements for trading funds. For instance, the cost of data supplied under licence by the UK Hydrographic Office is one of the concerns of many involved in marine science. The UKHO is a trading fund and, as such, is required to be self-financing, so it retains the information for its products and services to cover running costs and to fund investment. Revenue is clearly important to the UKHO in being able to develop its own programme. So I understand the point the noble Baroness makes but that would be the problem. In essence, it would take resources away from other bodies doing critical work in the area of research. The noble Baroness raised a general point about the need for information to flow as effectively as possible. I agree with her and it is something that we wish to do. The current principle under the Treasury rules is to allow Government to recover a reasonable cost for providing data on request. It is normal practice for the reasonable cost to cover the administrative costs of providing data to a third party. Additional costs are charged for data once they have had value added to them; that is, by combining other data sets through interpretation of raw data or producing products such as the geographic information system data layers. In those circumstances a charge may be levied by whoever owns the value-added product. These value-added products are often associated with licence charges. I accept the spirit of the noble Baroness’s amendment but it is unreasonable to expect these products to be supplied free of charge because it is often the production of these third-party products which helps to maintain the commercial value of data collection activities. However, it is not all gloom and doom. As I have said, it clearly is in the Government’s interest to ensure that relevant data collected by one government department are made available to another department which may need them to conduct its business. We are looking at arrangements in government in order to meet that challenge most effectively. We have taken significant steps over the past few years in preparation for the Marine and Coastal Access Bill, and the setting up of the MMO, to ensure that data collected are discoverable, collected to agreed protocols and held by data archive centres operating to similar protocols. All that is designed to ensure marine data are more readily shared across the community. We are finalising formal arrangements to allow for the exchange of survey data between a number of government departments and agencies at no extra cost. This will increase the efficiency gains for each organisation while avoiding the duplication of data. Clearly, I accept the point that the noble Baroness has raised. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, asked me about the confidentiality of data. Intellectual property remains the right of the producer of research. But the aim would be to make as much publicly available as possible. Data availability is set out in contracts for research and development. Applicants for development are asked to make their data available once decisions are taken. The Marine Management Organisation will be able to commission research and set out data openness agreements.