European Union (Amendment) Bill

My Lords, the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Howell, says, "““notwithstanding the normal practice of the House””." I am one of those who would rather follow the normal practice. I do not want this House to know what the Prime Minister may want us to do, because the processes come from the other House to this one. The moment you begin to invite those other views we as a revising Chamber are in a precarious position. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, said that we must give the elected Members a chance. In paragraph (a) of the Motion he says that Parliament should, "““consider the most appropriate response to the changed circumstances and uncertainties caused by the rejection … any amendments made to the bill made necessary by those changed circumstances to be considered in detail by the House””." We do not know whether there will be any amendments. Amendments cannot be started by us; they have to be started by the member states. We should not luxuriate in powers that are not ours. Our powers are to revise the legislation and have a Third Reading. I do not believe we have any other choice. The problem now is that some people will use it as a precedent. Decisions of this House have sometimes been frustrated by the other place using the Parliament Acts, but this House has always said that it will revise legislation and send it on as it believes it should be adopted. For that reason and for historicity, we really should not push the point because we are frightened of what will happen. The noble Lord, Lord Neill, is absolutely right that nothing in the Bill will be implemented, because the Irish have not agreed with it and because all member states are required to ratify it. However, we have a duty to ratify the treaty or not to ratify it, regardless of what someone else has done. Suppose the Irish were voting today and suppose the results were known on Friday, would we have ratified it or not? The answer is that we would have ratified it. We would not have waited to see what the Irish were going to do. I also do not buy the idea that the Irish are going to be bullied by anyone else. It is a sovereign state. No one should bully it. If it is bullied, then the British Government will have a duty to say, within the Council of Europe, that that is not on. That is what we should be doing and not fighting about something that will not happen. I want to tell the House something from my past which noble Lords may find uncomfortable. I was trying four cases, supposedly of stealing, brutality and lawlessness in the northern part of Uganda. Over two weeks I listened to the evidence but there was not really any evidence against the seven accused. Before I gave my verdict, I looked around and I could see Amin’s killing squad in the court. I knew that if I did not find the defendants guilty, as soon as they left the court they would be killed. I knew that the rule of law said that these men were not guilty, so I had better release them. But I found myself doing something that someone who abides by the rule of law would find quite difficult. All I could do was to say, ““I am going to send you to prison for a fortnight and then you will come back and I shall make my decision””. I knew that according to the penal code that was not on, but the people listening did not know that. The seven men were sent to prison and they came back in a fortnight. I looked around and Amin’s men were not there, so I said to them, ““There is no evidence against you. You have served the past two weeks, so you can now leave the court””. Afterwards I asked my interpreter to tell them to get out of the country, and they did. We are not in that kind of Ugandan situation. The Irish situation must not hang like the sword of Damocles over our parliamentary process, forcing us to say, ““We will not ratify it because of what will happen””. We do what we believe is right. I believe that we should carry on and ratify the treaty.