European Union (Amendment) Bill

My Lords, one is debating against the most charming opponent in the Lord President and one has to be deeply persuasive in order to carry the day. But, while I hugely respect the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, and the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, I hope that this is not as far as we can get in the matter. As my noble friend Lord Hunt pointed out—I support his speech as well as the amendment—under Clause 6 there are a number of important occasions where it is necessary for the Government to obtain the approval by a vote in both Houses. Therefore, the concept of obtaining that approval is not something that does not exist or could not be added to. We are talking about the Lisbon treaty. I have the honour of being a member of your Lordships’ Select Committee on the Constitution. Our committee issued a report that stated that the treaty was constitutionally acceptable and did not represent a grave danger to the constitution. However, as my noble friend Lord Goodlad pointed out, we were advised that, but for the relevant red lines—the provisions on justice, home affairs, criminal law and associated matters—it would have meant very great constitutional change. So we are discussing matters of very great constitutional importance. The four red lines supported by Tony Blair and the Labour Government are an essential part of the present Government’s attitude to the treaty—I do not think that they have resiled from them in principle. They involve the possibility of opting out and opting in. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, said, there is no doubt that what the noble Baroness said has increased to a considerable extent our power of scrutiny. However, let me give just one example to illustrate the reason for worry. I happen to be a very strong supporter of the jury system. The present Government have made at least two—I think three—concerted efforts through Parliament to truncate the jury system. They were prevented by votes in Parliament. Would they have been prevented by non-binding scrutiny? I beg to suggest that they would not. I see the noble Baroness waving her hands. Obviously, she has a brilliant answer to this and no doubt at some point she will give it. I will wait until we hear what she says when she speaks again. I believe that Parliament should ultimately have control. It has been said several times that it is for a Government to govern. Yes it is, but they govern if they have the support of Parliament. If they lose the support of Parliament, their entitlement to govern either in general or in particular should be either removed or truncated. It should be controlled in relation to these extremely important opt-ins and opt-outs. It is said that that is in practice very difficult; of course I defer to the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, who has wisely warned the House that it is extremely important to keep to the extraordinarily tight timetable. However—I welcome this—as the noble Baroness has said that what the Government plan to do will be the result of a report at the beginning of the year, if they plan to make some significant amendment to justice and home affairs matters, why do they not tell us then and arrange to get approval in advance—or at least arrange to get the debate going and get approval during the relevant eight weeks of the negotiation? It does not all have to be rushed ahead. If we were talking about small technical details, it might be very difficult. When I first heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, that there were about 50 to 90 a year, or 400 overall, I began to think that this was a serious problem, but actually they would be packaged and the big issues would be identified in advance. Consequently, that is in no way insuperable. Indeed, it would be in the best parliamentary traditions to announce them in advance and obtain approval within a reasonable time. For those reasons, the amendment, as originally tabled by the Constitution Committee and before your Lordships today, is reasonable, sensible and in no sense extreme. I am not, as I think will be well known, a Eurosceptic. That will cause displeasure among some, but I am a great believer in the support of our fundamental constitutional rights, and it is important that we should defend them today.