European Union (Amendment) Bill

My Lords, I welcome the statement made by my noble friend the Lord President and the care and consideration she has given to our amendment. The noble Baroness came to the Constitution Committee—indeed, she invited herself—to explain Her Majesty's Government’s attitude to our amendment and the difficulties it posed. I welcome her initiative. More years ago than I care to remember, I was told that the first rule of Welsh politics was: go to the meeting, be there before the meeting, stay in the meeting and be there at the end of the meeting. That saved me endless trouble. I did not always succeed, but at least it was worth the effort, so I commend my noble friend’s dialogue, which frequently achieves a great deal. The crucial point is that Her Majesty's Government have made a great deal of the importance of the red lines. The engineer is hoist by his own petard. The greater the importance of the red lines, the more important it is for there to be proper machinery to scrutinise if there is a change of heart. The Government have come a long way to meet our concerns in the Constitution Committee, but I would be the first to concede that they have not come all the way. They have proposed that there will be an opportunity to scrutinise and, importantly, that the Government will take account of the opinions whether to opt in or out. The European Union Committee will be able to separate the minor items from those of much greater consequence, which will be the kind of matters that I anticipate they will put forward for debate. It will be able to make such a recommendation on those matters to which it attaches significance. The Government will undertake to arrange the debate within the usual conventions, through the usual channels. Crucially, the Motion, which I surmise will be in the name of the chairman of the European Union Committee, will be amendable. That is of the utmost importance; it will not be a Motion merely to take note, but one that is amendable. Therefore, there will be an opportunity for a Division and, in practice, for the House to approve or not to approve. That is of fundamental importance. Ultimately, it is for the Government to decide. I have furnished myself with a copy of the draft transcript of the conversations that we had in our formal committee meeting. I hope that as it has been referred to, there will be no objection to my doing the same and that it will not embarrass the noble Baroness. She said, "““It would not be binding on the government in the sense that the government’s position would be that in the end a government takes a decision whether to opt in or not. My view is that a government faced with a decision not to opt in would, in a sense, find it extremely difficult to make an alternative decision to that””." If she emphasises the colossal embarrassment of going against the views of a committee of either this House or another place, she would do a great service to the House by emphasising the words in the draft, which so far have not been amended. I repeat that I am grateful to her for her efforts. It is the nearest we can get to a formal approval by the House. It would not be the end of the matter. I want to add one other point. I refer again to the draft transcript, where I sought to press her about the need for some approval to be enshrined in her words. She said, "““I am very happy to look at the wording. I am not trying to wriggle any government out of not listening to parliament. I am very conscious that I equally do not want to mislead you or the House in the word ‘approval’ implying the government would never ignore it. What you are saying, quite reasonably, is that if you have a deadlock in both Houses then governments have to make a decision and time runs out. Can I think about how we can make it sound stronger?””." I believe that this is as far as we can go. There could be a difference in either House; the elected House or ourselves. At the end of the day, the Government have to govern. It is the nearest we can get, as a signatory to the amendment, to a formal approval. In my view, it is more than scrutiny; it is scrutiny-plus. That is this House’s role and I would be content with that.