European Union (Amendment) Bill

My Lords, I fear that there is a tendency to try to move away from the middle ground of sensible discussion on how we move forward as good Europeans in the European region, the European Community and the European Union. That is one sensible discussion that this Chamber ought to be ideally suited to have. There is also the rather dottier exchange of a pendulum debate in which everybody who doubts the perfection of this treaty or the actions of Brussels is accused of being an anti-European and so on and so forth. That is a waste of time for us all and I beg that we try to concentrate on the real issue of how we fit together our foreign policy in the new world conditions. Europe has a part in that, but not the whole part. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, reminded us of old days with the Foreign Affairs Committee in another place. He did sterling work during his time. In an earlier period, I struggled to travel around the world with the committee. I remember going to some parliaments, such as the one in Copenhagen, where the parliamentarians appeared to be much more involved in the hands-on administration of policy. Indeed, they went as far as mandating Ministers before they could agree anything in the European Council or any of the other councils of Ministers. Our Parliament is wonderful, but let us not get into the mood where we think that we have nothing to learn from any other parliaments; we certainly have. All the national parliaments of the European Union have qualities and aspirations that we should learn from. The Minister had a good deal to say on scrutiny procedures. What she said is very interesting and the scrutiny system rolls ahead. She sent round a letter showing that the Government have disregarded scrutiny reserves fewer times than in the past. That is all to the good, but having participated in this process myself in the past I know that none of us can be blind to the fact that there is enormous difficulty in scrutinising the steady flow of instruments, regulations, directives and so on. The first difficulty lies in matching the sheer volume—a lot of these things simply do not get examined because there are too many of them. Secondly, it is difficult to have the time in committees—in addition to the profound studies that the European Union Committee undertakes with excellent results—to go into the full implications, consequences, aspects and side effects of all those instruments. In fact, I would say that to cover all instruments thoroughly and completely is very nearly impossible. That is all very interesting, but it is not quite what we are talking about. We are talking about issues where there is a transfer of powers, where previous veto provisions will not exist and where arrangements will come forward where it was not clear under the treaty that we had surrendered power but it turns out that we have. That is why Parliament as a whole, despite the excellence of its committee system, some of which has been in existence only for the past 30 years or so, needs to be apprised of changes that involve a potential or real transfer of powers. I am not sure that I succeeded in getting that point over to the noble Baroness, because she comes back to scrutiny and arrangements with our excellent committees under their excellent Lord Chairmen and the very good committees in the Commons. That is all very valuable, but it is not the point. The point is about the powers of Parliament. There is a struggle going on today to regain for Parliament powers from the Executive that have somehow drifted away during the past 200 to 300 years. The Prime Minister articulates the feeling that Parliament should have more say; even government legislation reflects that feeling. We, too, reflect that feeling. We say that the balance of power should to some sensible degree be readjusted in favour of Parliament being fully and regularly apprised, not just learning either by reports to committees or by a side wind, that certain things have happened that affect its powers. That is the issue before us in this amendment and in many other amendments. We in opposition—and, I hope, soon in government—believe in the parliamentary system, which is under attack today. We believe in the position of national parliaments in supporting the European system. We believe that these principles should be upheld and I would therefore like to test the opinion of the House on the amendment. On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to? Their Lordships divided: Contents, 152; Not-Contents, 206.