European Union (Amendment) Bill

My Lords, if the noble Lord had not interrupted me, I would have done exactly that. I was coming on to say exactly what discussions have taken place and when. I totally accept that he was not trying to say anything about the integrity of the Foreign Secretary, but he just got in before I had a chance to say that. I shall now allay his fears by putting on the record exactly what has been discussed. The first discussion took place on 10 April—I can give him the exact date, although I cannot give him the time, but I would if I could. That was a COREPER meeting. For noble Lords who are not familiar with that term, let me explain that COREPER is when ambassadors of all the 27 European Union countries come together for discussions. It is often a way of having preliminary conversations, particularly before Ministers come together, so that the positions of different nations can be set in place. It is quite common for COREPER to have informal discussions about issues that it sees coming and it is right to do that. They are not discussions at official level on which we would deposit information before Parliament. However, we are committed to keeping Parliament up to speed with what happens on the External Action Service. For example, if a matter were debated or discussed at any of the Council meetings, it would be included in a report given by the Foreign Secretary or by whomever or in a Prime Ministerial Statement. We intend to keep Parliament fully informed of any discussions that take place on that. As I indicated, those discussions are clearly designed to ensure that people have a feel for what is being thought about and the views of the different nations. I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Jay, said about the importance of our role in that. As I said in Committee, when I was in Brussels for a few days I talked to Robert Cooper, the director-general for external and politico-military affairs at the General Secretariat of the Council, about the External Action Service. He would endorse everything that the noble Lord said about the value and importance of the role of the UK. He would say that we have a tremendously important role to play. He was also very clear with me—I have tried to make this clear to your Lordships’ House—about the value of coherence in bringing the service together and ensuring that in some parts of the world we are able to provide the necessary support. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, that the only way in which the External Action Service can be set up is through unanimity. It is true that, if the Council asks the high representative to bring forward proposals, they could be determined by QMV, but they are only proposals on a decision that has already been taken by unanimity, so if the External Action Service were determined to be brought into being, it would be because 27 nation states decided that that was what they wanted. They would then perhaps invite the high representative to go away and work up proposals within tight and clear guidelines and those proposals would come back and be determined through QMV. I hope that that allays the fears of the noble Lord, Lord Howell, on that. Finally, I shall address the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Blackwell. I thought that I had answered it, so I got the officials to look up what I said. It relates to whether, if we sign up to something, we can get out of it again—if I can put it in a nutshell like that. I tried to answer that when we had our discussions in Committee on 6 May, recorded in Hansard at col. 496, but let me try again. If we agree with unanimity to take part in a measure, then we are bound in the same way as we would be in any other international agreement. Should there be a change of Government, policy or view, we would renegotiate it in the usual way that we would renegotiate in the European Union or under any other treaty. We had a long debate in Committee on that. That is the position. That is the certainty that one gives when signing up to something. It is a long tradition that Governments will renegotiate but will not walk away. I think that I have said enough without going back into all the detail on the External Action Service and the reasons why we do not accept the amendment. I hope that the present way in which the Government keep Parliament up to date and up to speed with what is happening and our commitments to do so on the External Action Service will mean that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.