European Union (Amendment) Bill

I do not doubt for a moment the passion and conviction that noble Lords have brought to this final debate in our deliberations in Committee. I congratulate all noble Lords who have spoken or intervened. I have sometimes felt as though I am intruding, slightly, on some conversations that have taken place. I know that this issue is the pinnacle, in a sense, of the issues for the noble Lords who have tabled this amendment. It would be very good for us to be able to vote this evening, although that does not rest with me. For me, one of the big issues has been to try to recognise the description of Europe that has been put forward by some noble Lords, not least because, as noble Lords know, I had the privilege of playing a tiny part through my work with the European Justice and Home Affairs Council. Indeed, when I was away this weekend, I spent time with Mr Solana, who is the high representative, Mr Barossa and colleagues from Italy, Malta, Slovakia, Sweden and so on, with whom I served on the Justice and Home Affairs Council. It was a great privilege to meet them again and reminisce about our discussions and deliberations about Europe. It is clear that what matters, above everything, when we have ratified this treaty, is that we get on to the agenda for Europe and our role in it, working with our 26 partner nations to tackle the issues that our people expect us to tackle, whether we are Government, Opposition or Parliament. Our responsibility as politicians must be to provide the people of this country with solutions to some of the big issues that face them. Noble Lords will know, because we talked about this on the first day in Committee, if not at Second Reading, about the agendas for the European Council, which have looked at such issues as the economic questions facing the globe, particularly the European response to them, and issues to do with climate change. We have worked together on the international situation, not least my noble friend Lord Malloch-Brown, who has just returned from Burma, having been the first British Minister to go there since 1986. These are the issues that we, working closely with our European Union allies, should be part of. I take nothing away from the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, in his commitment to the Commonwealth. I said at Second Reading that the Commonwealth is an important part of the work that we do internationally. I see the European Union and the Commonwealth as both/and, not as either/or. I know that the noble Lord feels strongly about that; I support him in so doing. I have also enjoyed the history debates. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, was there for many of these debates and, sadly, will not be writing his memoirs. Perhaps he will; you never know. It would be interesting to read them. I encroached on some party grief for the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, whose erstwhile friends are now in the UK Independence Party. That was interesting as we look across the complete spectrum of opinion on the opposition Benches. We have, I would argue, a complete spectrum of opinion sitting on the Conservative Benches. Although the noble Lord was kind enough to open his filing cabinet and get a little bit out for us to look at, there are some serious issues for the Opposition to consider. I say this with great sincerity. I look at the quality of debate and understanding of the European Union, but also at the breadth and depth of disagreement that exists within the party in your Lordships’ House and, equally, in another place. That will be incredibly difficult for Her Majesty’s Opposition to resolve. For me, the big issue is what this Bill seeks to do, which is a separate question. The noble Viscount, Lord Astor, suggested that we had to have this debate because we somehow had not managed to do what we should have done on the treaty. I shall not repeat everything that I have said about the constitution and the treaty. I suspect that we will go through that at least one more time before we get to a resolution. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, was suggesting to me that we might even do that twice. I do not buy the two-tier system of Europe. For me, it is pretty hopeless. You are either part of it, working together and collaborating effectively, or you are not. I shall not repeat what the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, said on those countries that trade and work with Europe and would find themselves having to simply ratify or deal with regulations over which they had no control, no say and no participation. I do not want to be part of that Europe. It would be inappropriate and not right for the British people. During past weeks, we have talked about the benefits of being part of the European Union—for instance, the jobs, the trade and the benefits to pensioners who live in other parts of the EU. That also applies to the City. On Rome I, the contract law, I had the privilege of working with many City firms, which were incredibly helpful as we moved towards the position where we are able to consult on opting in, having originally not opted in. I know the value and importance that the City of London places on trade with Europe within the right context. I am sure that the noble Lord would agree that in our contract law we did not risk losing the market to either America or the Far East, which we have successfully not done, by making sure that we have the capacity to separate out if we need to or to join in if we can. But I do not doubt the commitment of the City of London to this in anything that I have seen. The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, is right that we need a national debate. I put my hands up if I have failed to spend my time discussing Europe. All I can say is that I spent a huge amount of time in the presidency trying to interest our media outlets in what I was doing on civil justice issues, albeit to little avail. It was incredibly difficult to get them to take seriously what I felt was important provision for our citizens. But I do not take anything away. A national debate is quite different from setting up a referendum, on which the quality of debate may not be as good. Members of the Committee have referred to opinion polls. I often say: how long have you got? If you ask people about a referendum on anything, they will say that they want one. People feel that that is an important part of being involved, as noble Lords have said. But if you also ask people what we should not concentrate on, the EU treaty comes second in a long list. I will tell noble Lords later what comes first. Perhaps we can play a guessing game on that. I accept that polls are important. I would say to the UK Independence Party that the poll that matters is the general election. The UK Independence Party is a political party. It will put up candidates. It will stand for election on a manifesto that will have as its centrepiece—I have no idea what else might be in it—the idea that Europe does not benefit this nation. Then the UK population can go out and vote. Noble Lords on the Liberal Democrat Benches and on these Benches will campaign for people to say, ““Actually, we would like to be in Europe, given what Europe means for us””. That is what I recommend, ultimately, the UK Independence Party does. I have enjoyed listening to these debates. I hope that the noble Lord will test the opinion of the Committee, because that would be important. None the less, if he does not do that, I hope that he will withdraw the amendment.