European Union (Amendment) Bill

I have no doubt that the noble will say that, but that committee represents the views of all the political parties. It represents policy for the Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party. The noble Lord may wish to disagree, but I suggest he takes it up with his own party. The shadow Leader of the House in another place is clear in her representation of the policy. However, let us not get involved in that. Of course, the noble Lord is right that noble Lords can disagree with the conclusions of a committee. That is my point. What I am arguing is that we have to be a little bit careful, particularly in your Lordships’ House, that we do not, by accident, impugn anyone’s integrity. That is all that I want to say on that. The noble Lord was clever in getting the issue of Lords reform into this debate. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, on his non-lawyer point. I am a non-lawyer, too, so I am in the happy band of people who wish to look at these issues from that important perspective. I begin by addressing the concern that noble Lords have raised about the position of the Government in 2004 and of my right honourable friend Peter Hain in his then capacity as Minister for Europe. The great concern of the Government at that point was the potential impact on the separate intergovernmental nature of CFSP—common foreign and security policy. Once safeguards had been agreed—and within the Lisbon treaty we are very comfortable with the distinct nature of CFSP—our concerns went away. Noble Lords are completely right that the Government raised concerns. The concerns, as far as we are concerned, were addressed. Once we had the present position, we were content to move towards a single legal personality. Noble Lords have indicated far more eloquently than I can that this is not a new or particularly unusual concept. Lots of different organisations carry legal personality. My favourites are Vine and Wine and the Western Indian Ocean Tuna Organisation Convention. There is a raft of different organisations—some very familiar to noble Lords, some less familiar—that have legal personality. It is a standard characteristic of many international organisations, including the UN, and enables them to conclude international agreements where those are necessary to carry out their work. As the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, said in his opening remarks, the European Community has had legal personality since the treaty of Rome in 1957. It has concluded hundreds of international agreements that cover all fields of Community activity—trade and development with third countries and international organisations, for example. As the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, knows and as the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, described—and I will not put it in terms of schizophrenia—the European Union was not expressly given legal personality when it was set up. As the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, said, it has always been regarded as having legal personality in that it now has the power to conclude agreements in its own name. It has concluded about 100 such agreements in its own right. Since the treaty of Amsterdam in 1997, it has had the explicit power to do that in CFSP and in police and judicial co-operation in criminal matters. So, for example, agreements with the United States of America on extradition and mutual legal assistance were made in 2003, a co-operation agreement with the International Criminal Court was made in 2006 and there have been a number of agreements concerning EU police missions referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, to operate in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Democratic Republic of Congo and Afghanistan. What would happen at present—this is the simplest way of describing why we need to move to the single legal personality—is that the European Union and the European Community would need to accede separately to agreement, each within their own area of responsibility. That inevitably creates a degree of complexity, particularly for the third country or organisation concerned when, instead of concluding agreements with one organisation, it has to do so with two. The treaty simplifies the existing position, where there are two bodies, the EU and the EC, by providing that there will just be one body—the European Union. We believe that that will enable it to operate more effectively internationally and will help to make the actions with regard to third countries and organisations more coherent. My noble friend Lord Tomlinson has already read out Declaration 24, which expressly says that the treaty will not create any new powers for the European Union. As the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, and others have said, the EU Select Committee of your Lordships’ House made it clear in its impact assessment that: "““The Lisbon Treaty confers legal personality expressly on the EU, giving it the capacity to enter into legal relationships with other parties in its own right””." It goes on to say that the European Community expressly and the European Union implicitly have had legal personality before. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, asked whether the legal personality would somehow allow the European Union to become a member of the Security Council or be more involved in it. The answer is no. As I have indicated, a vast range of international organisations have legal personality but none of them can join the UN, let alone the Security Council. As noble Lords who are more familiar with this subject will know, under the UN charter, membership of the UN and of the Security Council is open only to states, so the only way in which the European Union could join the Security Council would be by amending the UN charter itself. Noble Lords have asked what this means for the high representative. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, indicated that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, had asked the right question. As the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said, the high representative will take over the role of the rotating presidency in negotiating, where mandated by the Council, in the area of common foreign and security policy. It is for the Council of Ministers to mandate the negotiation of such agreements and to conclude them. In the area of common foreign and security policy, that would be by unanimity within the Council. We have already discussed that at some length in Committee with regard to the relationship between the high representative and the Council. On parliamentary control of treaties, the position will be exactly the same as at present: where the EU, rather than the UK, is a party, the decisions are subject to parliamentary scrutiny in the usual way that has applied for many years. There is no change on that. As with all international organisations with legal personality, the EU can act only within the limits of the powers conferred on it by the treaties. Because this is, one could argue, a way of tidying up and making it easier to conclude agreements with other organisations and states beyond the European Union, we see no reason to lay a report about this before your Lordships’ House or another place. We think that this is an important way of ensuring that the treaty deals with outstanding issues where business could perhaps be transacted better by taking us forward into a single legal personality, but it is nothing more than that. It is an important step, and one that I hope noble Lords will support. I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.