European Union (Amendment) Bill

There is no misunderstanding. There are two models for developing our co-operation with Europe. The noble Lord, Lord Pearson, would rather be out of it altogether but, for those of us who wish to remain in the European Community, there is the model that sees it as an organisation in which there is co-operation between member states and there is the Liberal model, which is basically about creating a federal state and a federal Europe. The noble Baroness shakes her head, but I thought that the Liberals were very keen on European federalism. It is difficult to know what the Liberals think on these matters because they have not tabled amendments; they are simply acting as cheerleaders for the Government and are not providing any detailed scrutiny. However, I thought that there was support for European federalism. If you are a federalist, you want to create an organisation that has a legal personality because you want to create a country called Europe. Those of us who think that that will destroy Europe see legal personality as a particularly sensitive issue. That is why my noble friend Lord Howell is right to move this amendment. Having been there myself, I feel sorry for the Minister. She will no doubt reassure us that none of this really matters—that it is just a matter of clarification and the rest. However, two or three years down the line, we will find that it means considerably more than that and that there is no going back. If this is just a matter of clarification, taking it out will not make any difference to the progress of the European Union. The reason why Mr Prodi was so ecstatic is that he is a member of the group that sees Europe as having a federal structure and wants a constitution accordingly.