Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his usual careful and thorough response to the arguments that have been put forward. I am extremely grateful to noble Lords who have spoken in support of the amendment. They have brought a great deal of authoritative experience and insight to bear on an issue about which there is clearly widespread concern in this House. I shall pick up several of the points that the Minister made in replying. First, he referred to my humanitarian concern. I hope that I can claim to be part of the widespread culture of humanitarian concern that marks this House and so many of its activities. It has made me very pleased to be a Member of this House, which brings to bear not only learning, expertise and excellence but compassion and concern in a way that sometimes might not be so easy for the other place, with all the pressures of the media operating as they do on the electoral cycle—a point that we should perhaps bear in mind when looking at the future. The Minister has been at pains to appreciate the service and efforts of some of those who deal with these youngsters. I agree that there are probably many who are to be applauded. I have seen for myself the heroic efforts that can be made and the extraordinary results, such as young people who have been involved in armed robbery going on to hold postgraduate degrees and to make a very positive contribution to society. We should applaud them. The trouble is that they are still the exception. The reality is still stark. It would be quite wrong to go over all the statistics again, but they are there, such as the fact that 80 per cent of young offenders under 18 reoffend within two years. That is not a success story, although there are successes, and we must take that seriously. The Minister—this is not the only occasion on which he has done this—also talked about the determination to see proper services and support arrangements in place. I am sure that he will agree that much of the best research that has been done in this area shows that, if progress is to be made with the young, it will be made in small units. The ability to provide real relationships within small units is crucial to success. After all, when we dealt with the Minister’s own amendment earlier this afternoon, we touched on the fact that we must look to the needs of the young people concerned. He will have noticed that I was at pains to point out that what I liked about his amendment was that it did not talk about children in generalised terms; it talked about the offender. That was an important point to underline. I tremble when I hear about the vast new prisons that are marching completely in the opposite direction from what the research indicates is necessary for the young. My noble friend has said that he does not believe that it would be possible to provide alternative accommodation of the kind for which I argue on a comprehensive basis. However, he has not answered the point: if some other countries can do it, why are we not able to? I do not understand. I am a firm supporter of the Government, although sometimes they might ask when. In that context, we like to say how basically strong the economy is, despite some temporary interruptions from time to time. It does not quite tie up if we claim that we are one of the strongest economies in the world but then say that we cannot afford to do what other countries that do not have such economies can do. That seems to say something about priorities. I have touched on that before, but the balance of expenditure is a contentious issue. Galbraith spoke about, "““private affluence and public squalor””;" perhaps what goes on in our prisons is a good illustration of the point that he so well and so often made. I have never doubted my noble friend’s good will on these matters. It is good to see the Under-Secretary with responsibility for the children’s Bill on the Bench. Anyone who has been through that Bill, with which there is a great deal of overlap, would not be able for a moment to doubt his sincerity and commitment. There are mountains to be moved and I do not want to undermine my noble friends’ efforts to move those mountains. Although they probably cannot admit it, I believe that they are very much part of those who want to move the mountains. In view of all that my noble friend has said, it behoves me to go away and look seriously at his arguments and his response and to consider deeply how I should now proceed. I should like to give notice on how I might combine my concerns in this context with those of noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and his real anxiety to see how the situation can be improved in the immediate future. If the noble Lord will permit me, I should like to talk with him on how we might combine our efforts in that respect. At this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.