Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

My Lords, like our first debate, this has been an extraordinarily interesting and well informed debate. My noble friend Lord Judd said he thought he was irate, but I have always regarded him as a great humanitarian. I have very much welcomed the interventions that he has made in debates on this Bill in the light of that humanitarian concern and, of course, his wide experience. I well understand the concerns expressed by noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, speaks from a wide experience of what he describes as unsuitable accommodation for young people. I was also very interested in the comments of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, about how there is potential in the system to help young people, however grievous their crime might have been; the crimes to which she referred were indeed grievous. I agree that custody must be a last resort. Some major challenges lie ahead for the youth justice system as a whole. The noble Baroness, Lady Stern, raised a very interesting point on the numbers in custody. The figures that I have for those in custody at any one time in the under-18 custodial estate are as follows: 10-to-17 year-olds in secure children's homes, 215; 12-to-17 year-olds in secure training centres, 233; 15-to-17 year-olds in under-18 YOIs, 2,521; and 18 year-olds still in under-18 YOIs, 262. My understanding is that the use of custody for juveniles has not shown the kind of significant increase that we have seen for adults. At least we can share some degree of satisfaction on that, although we understand that much more needs to be done. I was interested in my noble friend’s comments about reoffending. He is right that some of the reoffending rates are very high. Clearly, we need to do everything that we can to try to get those figures down. Overall, for all sentences in youth justice, the proven reoffending rate was 40.8 per cent, which was a decrease of 2.5 percentage points since 2000. Within that figure is a wide variation, depending on the type of juvenile disposal. The noble Lord was right that the reoffending rate for custodial disposal is high. That shows that there is a great challenge ahead; it shows also that, inevitably, the young people who end up in custody are always likely to be those who are most susceptible to criminal activity. I am sure that there is great debate about that. What is not in doubt is that there has been some improvement, but it is clear that much more needs to happen. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, raised some interesting points about 18 to 21 year-olds. He has talked to me about the East End project. I feel that an invitation is coming my way very shortly to go there with the noble Lord. I would be happy to take it up because the project is very interesting and I will want to ensure that my department is aware of it. I understand the points that he raised about this younger age group. We are looking at the possibility of new arrangements for offenders in custody aged between 18 and 24. They are being piloted following a review of provision for young adults. So we have this issue very much in mind. I am happy to write to the noble Lord and share with him—