Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

My Lords, I echo the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, by acknowledging the quality of debate both in Committee and today in reflecting on our discussions and taking the argument forward. We are clear on the considerations that will now come to your Lordships’ House if these amendments are put to the vote. I also thank particularly the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, for his generous welcome for the government amendment, although clearly he thinks that it does not go far enough; nevertheless, his welcome is appreciated. I have not seen the film ““Parenthood””, although it sounds interesting. Those of us who are parents can always learn more. The use of the phrase ““do no harm”” reminds me of the injunction made by Florence Nightingale to the health service: ““First, do no harm””. I suggest that that is not a bad principle for many public services. I accept that we are talking about those who are in many cases very troubled young people. As the noble Lord, Lord Neill, and other noble Lords graphically illustrated, their lives are often wretched, short of love, deprived and open to many temptations. The internet was mentioned. I agree strongly with the sentiments expressed, especially in relation to extreme pornography, which we shall debate later. Equally, it is remarkable how many young people from such backgrounds do not enter a life of crime. In our consideration of these matters, we have to ensure that the system as a whole reflects this fact. We warmly welcome the expertise of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, in this House. However, I think that it is useful to have the words ““prevent offending”” as well as ““prevent reoffending””, because that underlines the holistic aim of the whole criminal justice system. I am afraid that I use health service analogies from time to time, but it is rather like the noble Lord saying that the only responsibility of a hospital is to cure sick people. I would argue that a hospital not only provides a sickness service but forms a part of our health service. It is important that we are able to reflect on the overall aims of the system. We are all concerned about the number of young people entering custody and some of the outcomes; again, I reflect the concerns about self-harm among those young people. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, mentioned restraint. He will know that we are undertaking a review of the issue following the debate on the statutory instrument. Clearly, we are keen to see the outcome of that review in the next few months. However, we should not ignore the improvements that have been made in the youth justice system. There is much greater co-ordination and the youth offending teams are doing a good job. Yes, they could do better, and the annual report of the inspection of their work indicates that there are areas where improvements need to be made, but we should not ignore the advances that have been made or the additional resources that are being put into education. I have seen for myself in a number of places the real dedication of those working with young people serving in custodial settings to improve their lot and their lives. The youth crime action plan is due to be published in the summer. It will set out cross-government arrangements for tackling the level of crime and reoffending rates while also recognising the significant personal challenges faced by young people and the fact that the system has been criticised for not going far enough to meet their needs or protect their welfare. The plan will pick up and develop the very ideas that my noble friend Lord Judd and the right reverend Prelate have talked about today, but it must also consider public concern about youth crime. On welfare, to which we devoted much discussion, I welcome the intervention of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, with all her experience. Part of the job of the courts in taking account of pre-sentence reports will be to assess welfare. The pre-sentence report will be based on what is called an ““asset assessment””, which will take account of any existing child protection plan, pastoral support, individual education plan, care plan, children in need assessment and pathway plan. So the mechanism is there. On the noble and learned Baroness’s comments on whether the courts understand welfare, one would think that they ought to. She says that more must be done and, given all her experience, I accept that. We will ask the Sentencing Guidelines Council to look at the provision of youth justice in the Bill. I will, of course, ensure that in doing so it will take account of and, I hope, embrace some of her comments. There can be no doubt that welfare must be a key consideration for young offenders. That is the purpose behind government Amendment No. 36. However, we must also look beyond the needs of the young offender and address the needs of their victims and the public. That is why we must ensure that the courts consider the need for reparation and financial compensation. We must acknowledge that the public also expect an offender to be punished for their wrongdoing. The public may be accepting of the view that a young person should not be punished as severely as an adult but they are unlikely to accept that punishment should not be considered at all. There has been great discussion on the convention, what it means and the definition of a primary consideration. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for his remarks on the drafting of the amendment, which he said just about passed muster; I will accept that. In our work between Committee and Report, we have looked at volume 1 of the Legislative History of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. It says that, "““a number of delegations questioned whether the best interests of the child should be a primary consideration in all actions. It was generally noted that there were situations in which the competing interests, inter alia, of justice and of the society at large should be of at least equal, if not, greater importance than the interests of the child””." It says that, in the light of those concerns, it was agreed that the convention should refer to the child’s best interests as ““a”” primary consideration, to reflect that there are others as well. That is why we have been resistant all along to the suggestion of their being ““the”” primary consideration and why our amendment is constructed as it is. I have noted with interest the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, on the purposes of sentencing in the clause, which are not to be amended by the government amendment. I do not think that there is anything untoward in the purposes of sentencing as expressed in the Bill, albeit that they are directed at young people. They seem to be entirely reasonable matters that should be considered, although I have no doubt that we could have a further debate on them. In conclusion, in resisting the other amendments that have been tabled, and in hoping that the House will accept the government amendment, I re-emphasise that we fully understand the importance of the welfare of the child, of ensuring that it is fully considered, understanding some of the circumstances in which young people have got into trouble and wanting to do everything that we can to get them out of trouble. We also think that wider issues will be concerned with the criminal justice system. That is why I hope that the government amendment will commend itself to noble Lords.