Local Transport Bill [Lords]

I would be interested to hear what solution the hon. Lady proposes if regulation is not the answer, because deregulation has proved an unmitigated disaster in terms of integrating transport. I challenge her on the point about London. She said that the situation is down to the subsidies rather than the regulation. My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Graham Stringer) pointed out that prior to the extra subsidy, passenger numbers were holding steady in London while they were falling in the rest of the country. If the element of subsidy in London is so important, would she advocate, as a policy, putting that subsidy into a deregulated environment? How could a subsidy of that kind and amount operate in any scheme except a regulated one? To pick up on just one point about subsidy and deregulation, one of the problems—hon. Members have expressed this at various times—of dealing with subsidies for the concessionary fare scheme in a deregulated environment is how to calculate that a bus company should not lose or gain as a result of its being introduced. It is a difficult and complicated calculation, which will always end up in an appeal or in the courts. The concessionary fare scheme is part of the tendered arrangement in the regulated environment in London. There are no arguments about calculation because each bus company that tenders for the arrangements makes its calculation about the concessionary fares along with its calculation about the overall tender. I would argue that that is a much better system in that sense as well, but again perhaps the hon. Lady does not see it that way. As other Labour Members have pointed out, parts of our constituencies are not served at all. I could cite a number of examples, but recently the treasurer of Woodhouse Mill working men's club came to see me. He lives in Woodhouse, at one end of the enlarged village, and Woodhouse Mill is at the other end. Because he lives at the wrong end and the bus service now stops at 7 pm, he cannot go to the club unless he drives. He has a car, but he should not really drive and encourage others to drive when they are going for a drink at a working men's club. Between those two areas is a magnificent new retirement village, Brunswick Gardens, which has proved to be a great success and a great improvement on other facilities in the environment. The people who live there, however, cannot go to the shops in Woodhouse at night. The removal of the bus service has taken away their lifeline. That is nonsensical, but the bus companies will not respond to complaints because they do not understand the wider issue. South Yorkshire council was so concerned about the position that a couple of years ago it embarked on the process of adopting quality contracts, but it hit the high barrier of a quality contract being the only practical way of delivering services. I accept that ultimately more subsidy may be needed to make the scheme work more successfully, but at that time the council was faced with the reality of, in some cases, up to 20 buses an hour running on a single route while a neighbouring estate had no bus services at all. If the whole arrangement were put out to tender, it would probably be possible to manage with 15 buses rather than 20 on the main route with no loss of service or passenger numbers; but it would be possible to increase revenue and passenger numbers by using the other five buses—no more resources, just the buses—to serve the areas that are currently not served at all, and give people an incentive to travel to them. Quality contracts make it possible to increase passenger numbers and improve services with the same amount of money that is being spent now. That will be a challenge for passenger transport authorities, but it is something that they will have to consider. As I have said, ultimately even more subsidy may be needed, and I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley that there is too great a disparity between subsidy levels in London and outside. That too will have to be considered. I welcome the principle of allowing passenger transport authorities to adopt quality contracts if they wish. As the Local Government Association has pointed out, it is a matter of choice for authorities—something that I thought the Conservatives now supported. Although during their 18 years in government they did not give local authorities much choice, I thought we had seen a conversion, but we seem to be back with the same old Tory party. ““We at the centre know best, and there should be no freedom for local transport authorities to decide””: that is their policy, and they should come out and admit it. I do not think that every transport authority should have to adopt a quality contract, but there should be a range of options of which that should be one.