Local Transport Bill [Lords]

That is a fair point and leads me to the approvals board and the arrangements that the Minister described in her opening comments. She made a sustainable case that there should be external validation of such contracts. That is right. If there were no external validation, I am persuaded that it would be easier for bus operators to take legal action, which would cost local authorities a lot of money, and the operators might be successful in that action. The idea of some sort of external validation is probably right. I do not like it much as a concept, but it is a logical step. To return to the intervention of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts), what sort of external validation process would pick up the points I have raised? How can we get a process that is legally sensible and protects local authorities without making it so cumbersome that the inadequacies of the Transport Act 2000, which the Minister recognised in her opening comments, are repeated? We do not want a system of hurdles that is merely a different set from the one in the 2000 Act. We want to ensure that this Bill achieves something. If we come back in five years' time with yet another Bill, we will have collectively failed. What balance should be struck? I am uncomfortable with the idea that there should be an approvals board and a referral to the transport tribunal—and, in theory, the High Court beyond that. There will be three levels of hurdles that can stop a local authority—which is democratically elected, after all—from pursuing a policy. It would be more sensible if there were an arrangement where the approvals board came up with a conclusion and made a recommendation to the PTE, so it could have the final say. Such a system would resemble what happens when the Environment Agency makes recommendations to a local council on flood defences. The planning authority still makes the final decision, but the Environment Agency makes the recommendation, and woe betide the local authority should it ignore it. Most local authorities will pay attention to such advice, but the elected members still have the final say. It would then be possible to have an appeal to the transport tribunal thereafter. One of the hurdles would be cut out. Alternatively, the approvals board could make the decision, as the Minister suggested, and the transport tribunal could be cut out with appeals going directly to the High Court. Either of those scenarios would ensure two hurdles rather than three. That would be more helpful in getting the balance right between local authority power and the operator's right to appeal. It would still have the proper right of appeal, and such a state of affairs would be legal-proof. I will be considering amendments along those lines in Committee and I hope that the Minister will sympathetically consider the points I raise. A number of objections have been made about the present arrangements by the Passenger Transport Executive Group, as the Minister will know. It makes the point that there are no limits on the grounds of appeal to the transport tribunal, and an appeal can be made by any consultee to the original quality contract application. That dangerous situation leaves the door wide open. We do not want a situation where local authorities face more risks, hurdles and delays. I am concerned that the traffic commissioners, good though they are at dealing with overweight lorries, do not yet have expertise in the area in question. There is a training function to deal with. They are being given substantial new powers that are important in the Bill, and I am not necessarily convinced—I mean no disrespect to the individuals concerned—that they have the necessary training to undertake such a role. We need to understand what the Government have in mind to ensure that the traffic commissioners are able to undertake the role allocated to them in the Bill. Secondly, the traffic commissioners say that they are underfunded and that there is not enough money for their current functions. If we load more functions on the traffic commissioners without allocating more funds to them, I fear that a lot of decisions will be made rather quickly and not very well, which would be in no one's interests. By the way, I would like to add in passing that it is good that we have an arrangement whereby traffic commissioners can deal with unsafe buses more robustly than previously. I do not have a problem with unelected persons being members of integrated transport authorities—I am old enough to think that ITA means ““independent television authority””—but I feel strongly that it is inappropriate for them to have voting rights. By all means let us bring in expertise, but the danger of having unelected people with voting rights is that there will be a temptation for those who appoint them to load up the ITA with those sympathetic to their views. That might undermine a democratic local election result that had produced a majority for one party, which could be transformed by the appointment of unelected people of a different political persuasion. I therefore hope that unelected members will not have votes. I welcome the proposals on community transport, which both the Minister and the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet mentioned. It is sensible that we can have drivers who are paid when bigger vehicles are used. I also welcome the amendments in the Lords, which will enable passenger transport executives to provide vehicles to community transport operators. I am concerned about the bus users' arrangements, however. We need to make them more robust and ensure that they are more independent of bus operators and more accurately reflect bus passengers requirements than they appear to. Lastly, I listened with interest to the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet on road pricing, just as I have listened with interest to Ministers on road pricing over the past few months. A variety of policies have emerged, none of which is particularly consistent with the others, so let me make plain where my colleagues and I stand on road pricing—we do not mind saying so. We think that the answer is a national road pricing scheme, which would give the necessary coherence to transport planning and would allow, for example, road tax to be abolished entirely, which cannot be done if we have only local schemes. We also think that a national scheme would enable us to price transport movements by carbon emission across the country. A national scheme would also be potentially much fairer—it would also be revenue-neutral, by the way—to those in rural areas, who currently pay far more for petrol than those in central London, which cannot be sensible. When the opportunity arises, therefore, we will be arguing for a national road pricing scheme, albeit probably not in this Bill, because it is outside its scope—at least I suspect that it will be, if I try to move amendments to that effect. In so far as we have local road pricing schemes, I welcome them. Local authorities should have the opportunity to innovate and experiment as they wish. I do not regard that as a restriction on local authorities, but a power for them to take forward if they choose to do so. My only hesitation, if I am honest, is that the Government are running a bit shy of road pricing. They are happy for local authorities to take a couple of hits and to see how schemes bed down, before they take forward a policy themselves. That is an abdication of the Government's responsibilities, so I was pleased that the Chancellor mentioned national road pricing in the Budget. We need to move towards that, both for the good use of the road network and for environmental reasons. The Conservatives are hostile towards road pricing, but perhaps they ought to talk to their friends in the CBI, which is quite in favour of road pricing when it talks to me, as are many environmental groups. Once again, I fear that the Conservatives are showing themselves to be completely out of touch with business, the environment and bus passengers, just as they have done throughout this Second Reading debate. I conclude by welcoming the Bill. We shall be moving amendments in Committee in respect of some of the issues that I have mentioned, but I assure the Minister that we, at least, shall approach the Bill in a constructive manner.