UK Parliament / Open data

Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

moved Amendment No. 78: 78: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— ““Secure accommodation for children and young persons convicted of a criminal offence (1) After section 89 of the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 (c. 6) insert— ““89A Detention orders (1) This section applies where a child or young person (under 21 years of age) is convicted of a criminal offence and a court makes an order that that child or young person should be detained. (2) A local authority must provide suitable premises in which that child or young person can be securely accommodated and appropriate care and support provided. (3) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision about the provision of suitable premises under subsection (2).”” (2) In section 27(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1984 (c. 58) (remand of persons aged 17 to 20) omit the words— (a) ““, if the court has been notified by the Secretary of State that a remand centre is available for the reception from the court of persons of his class or description, ””, and (b) ““and, if it has not been so notified, it shall commit him to a prison.”” (3) In section 43(2) of the Prisons Act 1952 (c. 52) (remand centres, detention centres and youth custody centres) omit paragaph (c). (4) For section 106 of the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 substitute— ““106 Interaction with sentences of detention in a young offender institution (1) Where a court passes a sentence of detention in a young offender institution in the case of an offender who is subject to a detention and training order, the sentence shall take effect as follows— (a) if the offender has been released by virtue of subsection (2), (3), (4) or (5) of section 102 above, at the beginning of the day on which it is passed; (b) if not, either as mentioned in paragraph (a) above or, if the court so orders, at the time when the offender would otherwise be released by virtue of subsection (2), (3), (4) or (5) of section 102. (2) Where a court makes a detention and training order in the case of an offender who is subject to a sentence of detention in a young offender institution, the order shall take effect as follows— (a) if the offender has been released under Part II of the Criminal Justice Act 1991 (early release of prisoners), at the beginning of the day on which it is made; (b) if not, either as mentioned in paragraph (a) above or, if the court so orders, at the time when the offender would otherwise be released under that Part. (3) Subsection (1)(a) above has effect subject to section 105(3)(a) above and subsection (2)(a) above has effect subject to section 116(6)(b) below. (4) Subject to subsection (5) below, where at any time an offender is subject concurrently— (a) to a detention and training order, and (b) to a sentence of detention in a young offender institution, he shall be treated for the purposes of sections 102 to 105 above and of section 98 above (place of detention), Chapter IV of this Part (return to detention) and Part II of the Criminal Justice Act 1991 (early release) as if he were subject only to the one of them that was imposed on the later occasion. (5) Nothing in subsection (4) above shall require the offender to be released in respect of either the order or the sentence unless and until he is required to be released in respect of each of them. (6) Where, by virtue of any enactment giving a court power to deal with a person in a way in which a court on a previous occasion could have dealt with him, a detention and training order for any term is made in the case of a person who has attained the age of 18, the person shall be treated as if he had been sentenced to detention in a young offender institution for the same term.”” (5) Section 61 of the Criminal Justice and Court Services Act 2000 (c. 43) (abolition of sentences of detention in a young offender institution, custody for life, etc.) is repealed.”” The noble Lord said: The amendment stands in my name and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, and the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote. I am very grateful to them for their support for the amendment. I am glad, too, that the amendment is grouped together with Amendment No. 119. Of course, the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, will speak to his own amendment. I shall say only that I am very much on board with it, as it seems to me that if young people are in custody, it is important that the local authorities, with all their special responsibilities and experience, continue to feel a sense of engagement with those children, so that they are there to help with rehabilitation when the children or young people are released and there is continuity in the situation. I am glad that the noble Lord’s amendment refers to the importance of trying to provide for continuity not only institutionally but by having the same people going through the same process. I do not want to sentimentalise, and I know that I am inclined to talk about this, but my nine years as honorary president of the YMCA had a profound effect on me. One thing that I realised—and I hope that the Committee will forgive my putting it like this—is that if we take rehabilitation seriously, it is important to have someone who takes the hand of the youngster concerned and walks with that youngster through the whole experience of custody, rehabilitation and back into full life outside the institution afterwards. That transition phase afterwards is absolutely crucial in winning the youngster back to society and preventing still further exclusion. We have had the statistics on the risks. I referred, in mentioning them, to the tragedy of each individual case, but the tragedy does not really sum up the situation well enough. We should think of the mental anguish and despair of the youngster concerned, who has given up hope. This is a terrible reflection—that we can somehow absorb this statistic and not be angry and indignant about it. I should like to feel that the new department with its new approach—and I believe that there is a lot of new thinking going on there, which I welcome—would have right at the top of its priorities how on earth we are going to stop this human tragedy of youngsters dying in custody. It is our responsibility—all of us—and it is essential for us to register what a terrible reflection it is on all of us that this can happen. My first job in government, a long time ago, was as a service Minister. In those days, there was a Minister for each service. I had the privilege of being Minister for the Navy. We had in the Ministry of Defence a very interesting group. I used to tease them by saying that it was rather like painting the Forth Bridge. They were constantly discussing the future shape of the fleet, trying to assess what the real threats were and what kind of fleet we would need to meet the new threats. It often occurred to me that, if we were to follow that job through logically and thoroughly, we would send these people off to a country house somewhere with a clean sheet of paper. We should say, ““Forget there’s a Navy. Analyse the threats, and come up with the maritime dimension of what you believe needs to be done to meet those threats. I always thought that there were one or two who would be horror stricken if there were no maritime dimension, but of course there was. I am a realist, although noble Lords do not always feel that I am. I know that you do not meet trouble half way and you should strike compromises—I believe in compromise—that are constructive, positive and dynamic. You should move relevantly to the future by taking a firm position on what you believe ought to be at the beginning. We are inclined to be too mealy-mouthed in our approach and to compromise too soon. Having said that, to go back to my experience with the Navy, I would then tell them, ““When you have done that, look over your shoulder and say, my God we've got this thing called the Navy””. I told them to look at the Navy as it was and try to make the most dynamic, sensible compromise between what they ideally wanted, what they inherited and what needed to be done. Why do I say all that? It is because I am getting to the same point of concern about our penal system. There is a big gap, constantly, between what all the research and evidence demonstrates and what we actually do. More and more, the evidence that is being collected and the work that has been done indicate that most progress towards rehabilitation can be made with people in small units appropriately designed to their particular needs. A variety of opportunities should be available for people with particular kinds of problems. I know that my noble friend will say that that is misguided as we go into the next phase of vast expenditure on new prisons—which I am inclined to think will end up as warehouses. He will say that because of economies of scale, we will be able to have much better services available within these warehouses to answer the specialists’ needs. But that is the issue. Technically and professionally there may be greater resources—I do not argue against that. I can see in an arid way that there could be economies of scale in that sort of context. But if we take seriously the work that says that you make real progress with small units, and the point that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, always makes—I hope he will make it again tonight—about the importance of continuity in human relationships in the whole process, it is not much good having technical, professional services and expertise available if that cannot apply in a dynamic, ongoing, complete social experience that makes sense for the youngster concerned. I go back to my experience with the Navy and the white sheet of paper. I put forward the thesis that if we could miraculously discard ourselves of the whole infrastructure of the penal system now, take a piece of white paper and say, ““What do we need?””, we could come up with a tailor-made system to meet all the research and analysis that has been done, which would be not a penny more expensive than what we spend now desperately trying to shore up a system that is not working. I do not believe that we begin to do that rugged, tough exercise of really analysing how far what we have is cost-effective or completely the wrong model. I believe in compromise and am a realist. One has to meet the situation that has been inherited. It is tragic, but one has to. Therefore, there will be compromises, but that is the kind of discipline we need in our thought. I am very grateful to the experts in drafting, and for their legal advice, who, as good professionals, without committing themselves to my amendment, explained how it must be phrased in order to be watertight in the context of the Bill. My amendment is intended to say that so much is at stake with children and young people, that the governing principle should be that they do not go to prison, or into the kind of custody we have seen too frequently in the past. Noble Lords on the Liberal Democrat Benches, whom I greatly respect, have argued with me that I am being unreasonable because I go too far and what I want would be impossible. I think of one in particular, who is not with us this evening, with whom I quite often find myself in agreement. My anxiety is that while you have a system in which there are exceptions to putting someone in prison, there will be a tendency among some sentencers not to use prison as an exception, but as a convenience. It is the easy thing to do. One has, therefore, to introduce the approach that says no. Of course, society must be protected. Of course, society must be protected. I hope that my having repeated myself comes out in the Official Report because I feel that very strongly. I believe, as we all keep saying, that if society is to be protected, it should not only be in the immediate or short term, but in the long term. That is why the success of rehabilitation work is so vital. I believe that. I accept that in some situations a young person will have to go into custody. In our society, surely, it is only acceptable if, when that happens, it should be into appropriate custody, which is part of the general care system. It has to be secure, but appropriate. I therefore move this amendment with some feeling, because I really have begun to feel exasperated at our failure to take a rugged, robust approach to what is necessary if we are to succeed in our oft-repeated objective of effective rehabilitation. I beg to move.
Type
Proceeding contribution
Reference
698 c1144-8 
Session
2007-08
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
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