Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

I take up what the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, said. In certain circumstances, punishment means retribution. We are not, I hope, talking about punishment as retribution. If we talk about punishment as education or help, we can happily talk about it. Punishment also should have an element of deterrence. In an article on capital punishment Lord Gardiner, when he was Lord Chancellor, said that retribution, deterrence and reformation were the three points of punishment. One cannot use the word ““punishment”” only as retribution, and I slightly got the impression that the Minister was doing that. I am trying to help the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, as well as the Minister. I am even sometimes thinking my own thoughts out loud to get to the bottom of this complicated matter.