Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

That is a bit harsh, and to be frank if he were to do so, it would be a very good dinner indeed. So good, in fact, that all noble Lords in this House assembled would also enjoy a very good dinner. I will come on to the question of resources because, as noble Lords know, I am responsible for legal aid at the Ministry of Justice. I want just to say that we cannot ignore the cost issue. The question for noble Lords is where the interests of justice test might not be met. The kind of example I have been given is one such as where a young person aged 17 in full-time education is charged with a relatively minor crime such as being drunk and disorderly in a public place. There may be an aggravating factor such as using offensive language to members of the public. Such a person might receive a youth rehabilitation order, depending on other sentences he may previously have received. The offender is familiar with the court process, having been before the youth court for relatively minor offences on previous occasions. Custody is not an option for such offence as he is not working for a living, so he will not lose his livelihood. Such a person might be held not to satisfy the interests of justice test. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, and the circumstances he suggested, I would have thought it rare for a young person who might receive a youth rehabilitation order not to meet the interests of justice test. Indeed, it is worth quoting from the Access to Justice Act 1999 the factors that the court has to consider, "““whether the individual would if any matter arising in the proceedings is decided against him be likely to lose his liberty or livelihood, or suffer serious damage to his reputation; … whether the determination of any matter arising in the proceedings may involve consideration of a substantial question of law; … whether the individual may be unable to understand the proceedings or state his own case; … whether the proceedings may involve the tracing, interviewing or expert cross-examination of witnesses on behalf of the individual, and … whether it is in the interests of another person that the individual be represented””." For the great majority of cases where the defendant is under 18 years of age, the interests of justice test will be held to be satisfied because the defendant would be considered to be unable to follow the proceedings. This is not being dealt with in isolation. The Legal Services Commission is about to start research into the consistency of decision-making under the interests of justice test. This will provide a much clearer analysis of the application of this test in relation to the under-18s and clearly it will inform any potential change of policy. Why do we give automatic legal aid representation for local authority residence or fostering requirements? The rationale for that is because both the LA residence and fostering requirements will require the young person to abide at somewhere other than their usual place of residence. That is different from the other YRO options which, although offering perhaps the most stringent community sentence in some cases, particularly with ISS, will not result in the young person physically being removed from their home. I understand the comments that noble Lords and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, have made about legal aid and the interesting point that curtailing expenditure on legal aid may lead to additional costs in the administration of justice. That is a matter of which we are mindful. I am determined that the legal aid reforms should go with the grade of a more efficient system within the courts and that the incentives all work in the right direction. On legal aid spending—I know that noble Lords will quote back at me that you cannot take all the figures for international comparisons at face value—we have the most generous system in the world. I am proud of that. We have to make sure that we spend the money wisely. There has been a huge increase in legal aid spending over the past 10 years—it now stands at £2 billion—and we have to be careful that we spend it wisely. That is why I am persuaded that we have it about right and the access to justice test means that the right decisions are made.