Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

I accept the noble Earl's point. It is difficult to make direct comparisons, but I will see what we can do. I also said that we are concerned about the number of young people in custody. We recognise that there need to be changes. That is what the first part of the Bill is about. We also recognise that we have to do more for those young people who find themselves in custody. There is no argument about that at all. However, we cannot ignore the need to address the concerns of victims and the wider general public to provide assurance that effective action is being taken to prevent and reduce offending by young people. The contrast between debates in your Lordships’ House and in another place is interesting. We have to take note of the views of elected Members in many regards, but I reiterate that we see custody as the last resort for young people. It is a requirement that sentencers must already ensure that where custody is imposed it is of the shortest length necessary and commensurate with the seriousness of the offence. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, that we hope that gives discretion to sentencers. None the less, in their capacity, they have passed those custodial sentences. Of course, any child in the youth justice system should be treated with humanity and respect. That is their fundamental human right and it is already enshrined in human rights legislation. Nobody who was a Minister in my department could wish otherwise for the people who are, in a sense, in our care. I know that we will debate the question of human rights, the United Nations and whether this country meets the requirements of that charter. The fact is that we think we are consistent with it. We believe that the requirement to use custody as a last resort ensures that the court must not pass a custodial sentence unless the offence or offences are so serious that neither a fine nor a community sentence can be justified.