Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

It is a pleasure to listen to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. He will be aware that the high level of churn in the youth justice system, meaning that children are kept a long way from where they are going to be resettled, makes it difficult to make that transition effectively. As the head of a teaching unit in a secure training centre said to me, ““When these children leave here, it is as if they were walking off a cliff””. There is no follow-through. May I ask three questions of the Minister? First, why is there this discrepancy between the practice of child custody in this country and that of our neighbours? Secondly, there have been a number of deaths of children in custody, but there has not been a single death of a child in a local authority secure unit—one of the small local units which have been discussed. If the amendment is redundant and the best interests of the child are already at the forefront of the Government’s mind, why has their policy not been to expand in this area? Is not the Minister concerned that so many 16 and 17 year-olds are kept at 60 young people to a wing, with just three officers managing them? My final question relates to a recent conversation with a German forensic criminologist. I paraphrase, but he said: ““We admire the research in the United Kingdom on outcomes for children””. I hear this from many quarters. We know in great detail, in a way that continental countries do not, how poorly, I am afraid, our most vulnerable children often perform. He says that he uses the evidence in speaking to legislators and authorities in Germany. He says to them, ““Look, the more you imprison people, the more they reoffend. If you use community sentences, they reoffend less””. Is the Minister persuaded by the argument that an overheavy use of custody actually puts the public at more harm, as it encourages recidivism? These matters need to be thought through. I support the drive of the amendment and look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.