Lisbon Treaty (No. 3)

It would be a sad day if that were to happen, because the Council of Europe goes much further into Europe and has a much better provenance and a much better history, but who knows just how far the ambitions of the European Union extend in that direction? As far as our Government are concerned, the question is where we stand in relation to all this. As we have heard, the Prime Minister has stated that we were going to have an opt-out or that, if there were no opt-out, the treaty would not extend our laws any further. There are three points that I would like the Minister to address. First, will the charter be used by the Commission as a basis for proposing legislation in new areas? Will the protocol take effect against new rights in legislative proposals derived from the charter by the Commission? We apprehend that the Commission will take the charter as an inspiration for its policies, because it has said as much in setting out its fundamental principles in the charter. So could the charter indirectly import new rights into United Kingdom law through new legislation derived from it? Secondly, we are told that the protocol will not allow the charter to extend rights beyond those already recognised in the UK. Let us look at this matter from the opposite point of view from the one rightly adopted by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wells, however, and ask how easy it would be to decide exactly what rights were already recognised here. If a right were already deemed to be in existence here, the European Court of Justice would have full scope to interpret the charter in the United Kingdom. And who would make all the decisions on these matters? It would of course be the European Court of Justice itself. May I give the Minister an example? Article 49 of the charter sets out a right in respect of the proportionality of criminal offences and penalties. It states:"““The severity of penalties must not be disproportionate to the criminal offence.””" Can the Minister tell us whether this is already recognised in United Kingdom law? Do we have the right not to have a disproportionate penalty applied to a criminal offence? If so, will not the European Court of Justice be able to rule on these matters in the United Kingdom in the relevant circumstances when dealing with Union law? Will the Minister tell us whether this right is already recognised in the United Kingdom? Thirdly, there is an equally important point about the interpretation of decisions taken by the European Court of Justice in member states in which the charter has full effect, and about whether those decisions will have effect in the United Kingdom. We have already heard arguments on this point, but I want to put it to the Minister again because the Government have yet to deny that that will be the case. They certainly did not go that far in their response to the European Scrutiny Committee. Will the Minister tell us whether decisions taken by the European Court in the countries where the charter has full force will be effective in United Kingdom law as part of the acquis of the European Court of Justice—yes or no? Who has the final right of decision on whether a right already exists in United Kingdom law and how far such a right goes, and on whether decisions relating to other member states will affect this country? The answer is the European Court of Justice, and there is no appeal beyond the Court. Its decision is final on these matters. The House must face up to the fact that we are locking ourselves into a situation in which the final decision will be taken by the European Court of Justice. My right hon. Friends the Members for Wells and for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley) have made extremely valuable points on these matters. Given the breadth of the charter and the rights that it contains, the ambit of the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice could run very far into matters that we are used to deciding for ourselves in this House. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wells raised the very apt example of abortion. Article 3 of the charter sets out the right to the integrity of the person. If the European Court of Justice were to interpret such matters that far, they could be decided by that provision. Some constituents came to see me the other day about the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill. They asked me how I was going to vote on it, and went through the arguments with me. In future, are we to say to our constituents, ““It's all very well you coming to see me, but at the end of the day, these decisions will be taken by the European Court of Justice, not as a result of arguments or votes in the House of Commons but as a result of arguments and decisions put forward by lawyers and judges in the European Court of Justice””? What effect would that have on the standing of this House? My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington and Chelsea (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) said that he was confident about the health of the European Union and the democratic principle. I have no doubts about the resilience of the European Union, but I am afraid that I do have fears for the health of the democratic principle, both in the European Union and in this country. Let no one in this House be under any illusion about the extent of the authority, power and decision making that they are about to cede to European Union institutions—particularly the European Court of Justice—as a result of the decisions that we are taking this day. We are abdicating an important part of our historical role as the guardian of the rights of the people of this country. We are handing those rights over to another institution over which our voters and the people of this country have very limited, if any, accountability. Let us be in no doubt about the seriousness of the steps that we are taking today. We cannot know with any great certainty where this will end, but given the history of what has happened to safeguards in the European Union, we have every ground for legitimate fear. We can be certain of one thing, beyond peradventure. I agree with what Commission President Barroso said to the German press shortly after the signing of the outline agreement that we are debating today:"““Lawyers have a beautiful future.””"