Lisbon Treaty (No.1)

I should like to give way, as the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) knows, because we have sparred on these issues and so many others, but I shall make a little progress first. Chapter 3 of the Lisbon treaty sets out the provisions on judicial co-operation. I was pleased that the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) highlighted the practical benefits that that will bring on civil matters—for example, for businesses. We are far more integrated than we ever were in terms of trade, so it is enormously beneficial to be able to operate a small claims court and follow through more easily on matters such as the settlement of debts. The rights of British citizens should not end at our frontiers, but extend beyond into the judicial space of our partners. Chapter 4 deals with judicial co-operation on criminal matters. One of the things that Conservative Members may forget is that more than 750,000 of our fellow citizens choose to exercise their right under the treaties to live in other EU member states. It is surely right that we should look out for and be concerned about their rights. The House will remember the hue and cry over the British plane spotters arrested in Greece in 2001 on suspicion of spying. I remember that a number of Conservative Members became extremely exercised about the matter, including even the hon. Member for Stone. In such cases EU-guaranteed rights for people to know the charges against them in order to be able to rebut them would be important, yet attempts to get guaranteed rights across the EU for defendants have repeatedly foundered in the Council of Ministers for more than three years. I find the position of the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) extraordinary. He seems to be arguing that the Conservatives want us to maintain our right to have lower standards of protection for defendants than Romania, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Greece or any other member state. That is the logic of his position.