Business of the House (Lisbon Treaty)

I am not surprised that the two Members who signed the motion in the name of the Government are not here. The Leader of the House, who is often here working diligently, is noticeably absent and the Foreign Secretary is yet to show his face. They have left the estimable Minister for Europe to deal with how the Government hope to get their proposal—we debated it a week ago today and they got general support for it, including from our Benches—from an agreement in principle to the other end of its progress. However, now that the Conservative Front-Bench spokesman and the first Labour Back Bencher to speak, the hon. Member for Hemsworth (Jon Trickett), have both made it clear that the proposed route is not acceptable—I will say similar things to them—it will be clear to the Government that they have got themselves into a muddle and that they cannot hope to go down that road. The Government came up with the idea that it would be good to discuss an important treaty—it is the reason for the European Union (Amendment) Bill, but it is not the Bill itself—by grouping subject areas of the treaty into discussion of different provisions in the Bill. However, anybody who looks at the Bill will see that it is only marginally detailed. It goes to the specific mechanics for implementing the treaty—for example, clause 2 is the important one that says that if we join the treaty to a list of treaties for which we already have legislative power, it has direct effect in the United Kingdom. However, the Bill does not set out the different subject areas. The Government therefore sought to manage the debate. What has happened shows how completely flawed our systems for dealing with treaties are in this place. I have argued that ever since I arrived here, and my colleagues have sought to persuade Governments of it in the past. We cannot expect colleagues and Governments satisfactorily to shoehorn a debate on a treaty into a debate on a Bill. The hon. Member for Hemsworth said that he would hand the baton on to somebody else when he finished. I was a bit worried that he was hoping that I would pick it up for the neo-liberal view of the world that he described. I am happy to be a Liberal, but that was not quite my understanding of my position—I am a much more traditional Liberal than that, for which I am sure he will be thankful. The hon. Gentleman argued that there should be both a debate about the general implication of the treaty and whether it would effectively give institutional power to deal with the private sector—a perfectly proper debate about one of the reasons colleagues such as me have supported the development of the European Union—and a debate about specific proposals, such as the implications for workers’ rights and the rest, related either to the parts on which we currently have no obligation, but to which we could opt in, or to the charter of fundamental rights, which is attached to the treaty but not a part of it as far as the UK is concerned. That would be perfectly proper, but we will not get a chance to debate those matters at all. Under the proposal, we are being presented with an attempt to shoehorn debates about some things into limited time, which will be inadequate, as is abundantly clear. Last week my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) made clear our position on the central issue. We on the Liberal Democrat Benches believe that the treaty is a good thing, that it will be good for Britain, that we were right to ratify it and that we should agree to it. That is our position and we do not resile from it. We also had an exchange, which is now familiar, about whether we should have a referendum on the treaty or on the wider issue. The House knows the positions: the Government said that there should be no referendum, the Conservative party wants one just on the treaty and we want one, once the treaty is agreed, on whether the United Kingdom should remain in the European Union. We would campaign in support of our remaining in the EU. However, those are not the matters for today. Before I even saw the Conservatives’ amendment, I was clear that the Government proposal would not work and that we should vote against it—defective though the Conservatives’ amendment is, it is a better attempt than what the Government have proposed. At 10 o’clock tonight, my colleagues and I will therefore vote against the proposal in motion No. 2. We are absolutely clear that it is defective. We shall support amendment (f), standing in the name of the Leader of the Opposition, because it is the best alternative in town, although it, too, is substantially defective. Hoping that we will defeat the Government tonight and that those such as the hon. Member for Hemsworth will have the courage of their convictions and vote out this procedural proposal, I now make the offer, which I am sure would be accepted by those on the Conservative Front Bench, to the Minister for Europe and the Deputy Leader of the House that we sit down after tonight’s proceedings and do what we should have done in the first place: negotiate not a perfect solution—we are in an imperfect context—but a much better solution. Such a solution would not only allow debate about the substance, but allow the legislature to decide the important issues and propose them to the Government. Of course we can do that thematically, by taking, for example, the charter of fundamental rights one week and justice and home affairs, which are currently on the agenda for tomorrow, another week. However, the decision should be led by the legislature, not the Government. We know what the Government’s position is. The Committee stage of parliamentary proceedings is not the time when Governments should make their proposals; it is when parliamentarians from the Government Back Benches and all Opposition parties should test them by amendments and come to a conclusion.