Children and Young Persons Bill [HL]

I rise to support the amendment and to speak to Amendment No. 68. In supporting the amendment, I immensely look forward to what my noble friend Baroness Massey will have to say. When the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has spoken on these issues, it is a brave person who tries to say anything else, because he has so much experience and so much genuine commitment—I do not hesitate to make the point again that all that is underlined in its significance by the fact that he has a distinguished military career behind him. That is not altogether an expected starting point for someone who has done those things. The more disrupted the life is, the more important continuity is and the more important stable points of reference become. Therefore, the amendment is crucial. We constantly speak about our objective being rehabilitation. Is it rehabilitation or not? How on earth will we maximise the prospects of rehabilitation if, at a very sad period of their lives, we subject people to further disruption? Obviously, there will be some disruption by their internment, but we ought to turn that as far as we can into an opportunity to strengthen the processes of continuity and support, not undermine them. I could speak at great length on my amendment, or I could speak briefly. Obviously, I must do the second. First, I am immensely grateful for the extraordinarily good legal advice that I had on how the amendment should be drafted. I say thank you in a big way. The purpose of the amendment is something about which I feel at least as passionately as does the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, on a whole range of issues of human policy. I have come to the conclusion that, until we make it abundantly clear that under no circumstances do people in those age groups who are going to be interned go anywhere but to a special institution designed for that age group, there will inevitably be processes of rationalisation that say, ““In this case, we make an exception and we will lump them together where a place is available””, for whatever reasons. That has gone on too long. Of course, I oversimplify and am in danger of distorting, but my starting point is that no one in that age group should be in prison. That is not a place in which rehabilitation of the young can be achieved. I have heard those whom I greatly respect on human rights and social policy say that to say never is not reasonable because there will always be exceptions. I am afraid that I have come to the contrary conclusion. I have come to the conclusion that if you have provision for exceptions, exceptions will too often become the rule of the day. Until we have that principle firmly established and laid down in black and white, we will never make sufficient provision for that to happen. Therefore, my second amendment is about that. I cannot say how strongly I believe it to be necessary.