Climate Change Bill [HL]

I was asked whether the Government was going to be brave. It would be a brave Whip in the House of Lords who sought to go further than the Secretary of State on this matter. I welcome the opportunity to respond to this short debate—bravely enough, I hope. I want to make things clear to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, who asked whether the Government ruled personal carbon trading out of the Bill. In response, I can say that we are ruling it out of this Bill now, but we are not ruling it out as an area of active research and active consideration. For my noble friend Lord Woolmer of Leeds, I would like to take some time to reiterate the comments made by my right honourable friend David Miliband to the Joint Committee, as the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, started to do. In particular, my right honourable friend said: "““I think it is frankly inconceivable that fundamental changes like that would be smuggled in under these provisions. To have a clause excluding them seems politically odd to me … there would be quite big technical issues about drafting an exclusionary order of that nature””." I know that the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, picked up on those points, but I want to put them on the record in order to take the discussions forward, as we go on to Report stage. I shall take a few minutes to respond to the questions asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer. Amendment No. 165 calls for explicit reference to be made to trading schemes that operate on a personal or community level. The noble Baroness is well aware that the Bill provides that a trading scheme may be established if it encourages, "““activities that consist of, or that cause or contribute, directly or indirectly, to reductions in greenhouse gas emissions or the removal of greenhouse gas from the atmosphere””." Technically, as the noble Baroness knows well, that means that there is no restriction on where in the economy or at which level of society the schemes may be introduced. Bearing in mind my comments, she will know the context in which we are debating this. During the pre-legislative scrutiny by the Joint Committee, the Secretary of State indicated that we did not envisage using the enabling powers to support the introduction of personal carbon trading schemes. I reiterate my noble friend’s point: any such scheme would require change of quite a different order of magnitude to that required for a scheme limited to a particular sector or group of sectors. By its very nature, it would have the potential to impact directly on individuals. There is a link here to the separate question about the Government’s views on personal carbon trading, which are of great concern to the noble Baroness. We are certainly committed to exploring action to tackle emissions at individual and community level. However, there is still a lot of work ahead to explore whether or not—as the noble Baroness asked—personal trading is a realistic and workable policy option. The Government are looking into the potential value of personal carbon trading, as just one of a number of potential long-term options being explored for making individuals better informed about, and involved in, tackling climate change. We expect to be able to make a decision on whether further analysis is necessary this year. The noble Baroness asked what the Government are doing to promote further investigation of this concept. The Government are considering personal carbon trading on a number of levels. For example, a cross-departmental working group has been established to consider personal carbon trading in detail. This of course includes officials from Defra, as well as from BERR, the Department for Transport, the Department of Communities and Local Government and HM Treasury and the Sustainable Development Commission. The Government are keen to make progress, and a pre-feasibility study is being carried out to answer some of the key questions on personal carbon trading. The study, as the noble Baroness knows, is due to report this year. Work in government on personal carbon trading is being supplemented by a significant amount of work, as the noble Baroness has suggested, in the academic community; Defra is contributing to its funding. A number of these relevant bodies are members of a wider—I cannot say ““PCT”” as that means ““primary care trust””—personal carbon trading advisory board which has been established to consider the issue. We are interested in the idea of personal carbon trading. However, given its wider-reaching impact on society, it is right that any decision is based on a thoroughgoing exploration and well established evidence base. The noble Baroness asked about piloting or a voluntary scheme. The scoping study produced by the Centre of Sustainable Energy recommended addressing the high-level questions surrounding personal carbon trading before considering a pilot or a trial scheme. Pilot systems would, as the noble Baroness is aware, inevitably be simpler, potentially fault ridden and less defined than any final system. They could lead to failure and subsequent public distrust if a pilot was not carefully thought through at the highest levels and in detail. Additionally, it would be difficult, if not impossible, to pilot one of the most important factors behind the scheme: its compulsory and national nature. We do not, however, rule out exploring likely individual responses, perhaps by developing and testing simulation games or running some trials. However, while these could provide some valuable information, they could not and should not be seen as formal pilots for a national mandatory scheme. The noble Baroness asked about ID cards. For the record, the report of the Centre for Sustainable Energy does not recommend this. While noting that some academics, such as those at the Tyndall Centre, have stated that such a link would provide maximum levels of protection against fraud, the report goes on to state that personal carbon trading could be integrated within the banking system—which is of course an alternative way of looking at it—and that no link with ID cards would be necessary. Finally, the noble Baroness asked about Defra’s financial commitment. Over the financial year 2007-08, Defra will have spent over £140,000 on external work to explore the details of personal carbon trading, backed by over £100,000 of internal staff resource. I hope that I have been able to pick up on questions raised by Members of the Committee in this short debate, and that, with that, the noble Baroness will consider withdrawing her amendment.