Climate Change Bill [HL]

It is an illusion to believe that accepting these amendments will solve the problem. It will not. Problems are difficult and complex. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, to whom I always pay due regard, alleged that the Government are ignoring the effects of international aviation. That is far from true. Apart from by Ryanair and some companies outside Europe, this situation is being taken seriously. All airlines in this country have said that they have to address this problem and are doing so as best they can, but international legislation is needed to do anything serious about this. That is why the Government are rightly expressing the view that we have to do something positive in ICAO and the IMO about these issues. It is patently untrue that they are doing nothing. It is right that they do not act with enormous speed, but it is instructive to understand—I come to the contribution made by the noble Earl, Lord Selborne—that we are making some progress. Already Australia, which was implacably opposed to any advance, has come into line and there is reason to believe that China and India will also do so. We should not write them off as being implacably opposed to any advances. Domestic aviation and shipping are already included in the permitted emissions. It follows that we are concerned with international activities. I do not think that any responsible Government of any hue could act outside those international aviation and shipping bodies initially. I am concerned that the Government have said that, despite the best efforts they are making, they will act to include aviation and shipping if no agreement is forthcoming. I ask my noble friend to embark on that in rather more detail, because I found it very difficult to comprehend that argument. What limit is being placed on it? Are we talking about 2012 or 2015? What are we saying? As for shipping, it must be recognised that it is all too easy for a ship's flag state to be amended. We should not welcome that, but it is a fact of life. It happens. Already, too many ships change their flag state because international legislation is not too strict. That should not be encouraged, but how do we go about tackling that issue? For the interim, emissions trading is a very practical issue on which the Government are right to concentrate. That is also the view of the European Commission, which introduced the European trading system as a legislative proposal at the end of 2006. It envisages a staged approach covering all flights between European Union airports from 1 January 2011 and arrivals and departures from the following year. By 2015, some 31 million tonnes of carbon dioxide will be reduced annually from intra-European Union flights, and a greater amount on all arriving and leaving from Heathrow and other airports. It goes without saying that, in the mean time, the Government are right to strive for an enforceable international regime. If that does not succeed, I do not know what the answer is, but they are quite right to enable us at this stage to go down that route.