Welfare Reform Bill

I want to make a couple of points in relation to Amendment No. 79, which focuses on the need to eliminate discrimination and to promote equality. If is of interest that this amendment is supported by a lot of organisations: Rethink, Mencap, the National Autistic Society, the Royal National Institute for the Blind and the Royal National Institute for Deaf People. I think that that gives some idea of the degree of concern about the likelihood that those groups of people might experience the regime as discriminatory, although I am absolutely sure that that is not at all the Government’s intent. Clearly a lot of these worries centre on the contracting-out of this work and the use of payment by results in the contracted-out environment. This again takes me back to the issue of the Pathways pilots being undertaken in-house, as I understand it, yet they have not managed to achieve what I am sure they were hoping for these most disadvantaged groups. Does the Minister have any indication from the pilots that have not proved to be successful of different ways of working which could then be incorporated into the rollout? He referred to the importance of training and ensuring that people are trained, yet yesterday he implied that my reference to a particular jobcentre manager might not have been representative and he said he was sure that all these people are trained. These are difficult questions. I am anything but convinced that Jobcentre Plus people, whether in Pathways or outside it, really have the necessary training to provide a service that gives real equality of opportunity for these very disadvantaged groups compared with the easier-option groups. I find it very difficult to envisage that this Bill could come into operation across the country when, as I see it, we simply do not yet have a model that we know can work for these very disadvantaged groups. I say with certainty. I know that the Pathways evaluation has not been published but there is enough evidence around to show that we just do not have a model. Can the Minister give me any assurance at all that these groups will not feel discriminated against and will feel that they have equal opportunities to achieve what they all—or the vast majority of them—want to achieve; that is, a job.