UK Parliament / Open data

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Thursday, 1 March 2007, in the House of Lords.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

689 c239-312GC

Session

2006-07

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Welfare Reform Bill. As amended in Grand Committee.
Thursday, 1 March 2007
Bills
House of Lords

Welfare Reform Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 24-EN also published.
Wednesday, 10 January 2007
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c291-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am reassured by that statement. Nevertheless, what would be even more reassuring is the knowledge ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c292GC (Link to this contribution) To deal more specifically with that point, perhaps I should re-read the White Paper to which the nob...

Show all contributions (143)

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c295-6GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for bringing about this debate. I am trying to think of something amusing to ...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c281GC (Link to this contribution) We were just probing. The Minister rightly makes the point that there are difficult balances between...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c276GC (Link to this contribution) I should like to study the detail, but I shall reflect on the point made by the noble Lord so that I...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c276GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is right. In 1997, something like 33,000 people were accessing single room rent and t...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c268GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may speak very briefly to Amendment No. 93. I am extremely tempted to say ““no””, for the ...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c266-7GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for raising an important issue with her amendment. Income-related benefit...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c246-7GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may respond to the points raised in what has been a helpful and valuable small debate on t...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c249-50GC (Link to this contribution) We support Amendment No. 76. I shall speak to Amendments Nos. 77 to 81 tabled in my name and that of...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c291GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that response. I was particularly keen on the emphasis that he laid on reha...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c292GC (Link to this contribution) Much of what the Minister said could have been quoted almost directly from the housing White Paper o...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c293GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 107A: 107A: Clause 35 , page 30, line 2, at end insert— ““(3A) In respect of de...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c294GC (Link to this contribution) We support the amendment. It seems to be a no-brainer. Why on earth would rent officers not want to ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c294-5GC (Link to this contribution) I think that the Minister has the Benefits and Contributions Information Guide 2006 in front of her....

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c296GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to withdraw my amendment, because I was much reassured by the noble Baroness’s comments a...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c297GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that I made it clear enough. The duty for rent officers to consult local authorities i...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c298-9GC (Link to this contribution) I have great sympathy with the concerns raised by the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Addington. I...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c297GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 35 agreed to. Claus...

Lord Addington | 689 c297GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 108: 108: Clause 36 , page 30, line 21, at end insert— ““(2C) Regulations made...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c304GC (Link to this contribution) The regulations referred to with regard to Clause 40 are in the Red Book on page 138. I apologise if...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c304GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 108B: 108B: Clause 40 , page 33, line 17, at end insert ““if it is done for th...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c309GC (Link to this contribution) For the avoidance of doubt, does ““healthcare professionals”” mean anyone other than doctors, medica...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c309GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, is right to ask that question. We have been using the words ““healt...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c281GC (Link to this contribution) Because no reference was made to it, I thought that the noble Lord was not going to highlight it but...

Earl of Listowel | 689 c277-8GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his considered replies to the concerns raised. It was good to be reminded h...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c279GC (Link to this contribution) I may have chided the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, slightly on the previous amendment but on this one I ...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c278GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 103B: 103B: Clause 29 , page 20, line 16, at end insert— ““( ) Regulations spec...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c283GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 104 not move...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c283GC (Link to this contribution) The Bill gives us an opportunity to address the issue. The amendment would give people who are not p...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c283GC (Link to this contribution) Having already addressed the amendment and got my retaliation in first, I will not bore the Committe...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c281GC (Link to this contribution) In my list, Amendment No. 103C is listed separately, but that list is one that we provided for ourse...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c310GC (Link to this contribution) I understand that point. I thought that we had already committed to write to noble Lords to make it ...

Lord Haskel | 689 c239GC (Link to this contribution) If there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn as soon as th...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c276GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is absolutely right to say that it is capped within each authority, but in aggregate ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c268GC (Link to this contribution) I note what the noble Lord has said and look forward to our possible debate in due course. On Quest...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c269GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 96 to 102: 96: Schedule 3, page 63, line 9, leave out ““(7)”” and insert ““(...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c263GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minster leaves that point, as I expect she is about to, does she have any figures on how ...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c262GC (Link to this contribution) The clause is obviously apposite to the purposes of the Bill, Pathways and everything that we have b...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c261GC (Link to this contribution) This has been a useful debate, not least because we have had the very kind offer to see the computer...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c261GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may clarify that point. I accept that it is important to evaluate the whole of the ESA jou...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c251-3GC (Link to this contribution) There has been a great deal of interest from noble Lords and those in another place on the possibili...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c253GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, I believe that would be the practical effect. I will try to deal with some of the other questi...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c254GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that I have shown during the course of the Committee that I am a fairly tolerant individual, ...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c253GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his detailed replies to our amendments—they were helpful—and I hope that, i...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c255GC (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that the Minister has been trying hard to satisfy us, but I remain unsatisfied. Clearly...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c255GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 81A: 81A: Clause 16, page 14, line 24, leave out paragraph (a) The noble Lord...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c256GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 16 provides that the income and capital of a person claiming employment and support allowance...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c240GC (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to hear that the provision is basically designed to stop the ““thwarting””—I think th...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c244GC (Link to this contribution) I shall try again. Bids for Pathways to Work contracts for potential providers should include detail...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c244-6GC (Link to this contribution) I beg forgiveness from the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for missing the earlier e...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c244GC (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord kindly repeat that? I missed about three words in what he has just said.

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c248GC (Link to this contribution) That is extremely helpful. This has been a useful discussion on a rather complicated area. I am grat...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c291GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Lord will also accept that I said that if rehabilitation services were not ava...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c292GC (Link to this contribution) Focusing on rehabilitation is rather to miss the point. If these resources are available, they shoul...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c297GC (Link to this contribution) Absolutely.

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c297GC (Link to this contribution) The direction of travel which the Minister has outlined is good. I still do not see why the amendmen...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c297GC (Link to this contribution) May I assume that this is on the basis of continual consultation?

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c301GC (Link to this contribution) The point I tried to make was that if a tenant falls into arrears of eight weeks or more, payments s...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c303-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for introducing the amendments, which take account of part of wh...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c304GC (Link to this contribution) From these Benches, we welcome the government amendment in response to the Delegated Powers and Regu...

Lord Addington | 689 c302GC (Link to this contribution) That is about as good an answer as you can get at this point, although you are always a little worri...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c302GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 108A: 108A: Clause 40 , page 33, line 16, leave out ““any prescribed purpose w...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c305GC (Link to this contribution) I have taken this opportunity to probe exactly how widely the Government intend this clause to exten...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c304GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 109 to 110: 109: Schedule 6, page 81, line 2, after ““Regulations”” insert “...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c307GC (Link to this contribution) It really is extremely annoying that for the last few amendments of the Bill we are under such press...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c279-81GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 103B and 103C seek to amend Clause 29. Amendment No. 104A is a new clause concerning...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c276-7GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his replies. I also welcome the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, to a speaking part...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c287-91GC (Link to this contribution) These amendments seek to ensure that disabilities and health issues are taken into account before a ...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c285-7GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 105, 106 and 107 stand in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Thomas. The claus...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c283GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 104B: 104B: Clause 30, page 21, line 34, after ““reduced”” insert ““by up to 50...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c283GC (Link to this contribution) I acknowledge that there is always more to do to ensure that people are fully supported, but it woul...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c311GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentsNos. 114 to 115: 114: Clause 68, page 49, line 4, leave out second ““and”” 115: ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c310GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 112: 112: Schedule 7 , page 82, line 27, at end insert— ““( ) In section 123 (u...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c310GC (Link to this contribution) I am delighted. In that spirit, we follow the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. Both Min...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c310GC (Link to this contribution) I am well aware that the noble Lord and others are pressing for as much clarity as possible. I am ad...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c309-10GC (Link to this contribution) Can I be quite clear on that? We raised this question yesterday, and I would have expected a little ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c273-6GC (Link to this contribution) I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, to what I think is his first duty on the Front Bench on this ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c269GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 95: 95: Clause 25 , page 19, line 11, at end insert— ““( ) regulations under se...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c273GC (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to be able to join the deliberations on the Bill. If this change of voice also change...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c272-3GC (Link to this contribution) In speaking to the amendment, I shall speak also to AmendmentNo. 104, standing in my name and that o...

Earl of Listowel | 689 c269GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 103A: 103A: Clause 29 , page 20, line 16, at end insert— ““( ) The appropriate ...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c263-4GC (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting point, and I shall write to the noble Lord about it. We are extremely indebte...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c261-2GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise for being a little slow this afternoon, but with the permission of the Committee I shall...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c260GC (Link to this contribution) I am sure that there will be a strong take-up for that. I do not want to labour this point, but the...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c267-8GC (Link to this contribution) The Department of Health is carrying out a review of prescriptions, but the Department for Work and ...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c267GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister very much for that very encouraging reply. She said again that she ““expected””...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c268GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 93: 93: Clause 25 , page 19, line 10, at end insert— ““( ) regulations under se...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c265-6GC (Link to this contribution) This amendment refers back to points I made on the first day—as the noble Baroness has said—indeed, ...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c267GC (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that point. I was trying to make a distinction; namely, that to obtain free prescriptio...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c267GC (Link to this contribution) I said that the amendment related to those who received either strand of ESA as their only household...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c264GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 88: 88: After Clause 21 , insert the following new Clause— ““Prescription char...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c253GC (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister saying that everything that the amendment asks for will be done anyway? On that basi...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c254GC (Link to this contribution) It is an unfair representation of the Government’s position to say that we want to do it when we lik...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c255GC (Link to this contribution) I know that the Minister tried to provide comfort with that small speech, but I am afraid that the s...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c256-7GC (Link to this contribution) I was suggesting that this should be included as a more general power, and therefore it could be tak...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c258-60GC (Link to this contribution) Independent research has already demonstrated the success of Pathways. We touched on the question of...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c260GC (Link to this contribution) Yes please!

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c239GC (Link to this contribution) This is a new month but a continuing Committee stage. What I am about to produce is, I think, a new ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c246GC (Link to this contribution) It may be easier if I add to those two contributions. The relationship between the customer and the ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c242-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the broad acknowledgement that using providers as envisaged has support in princip...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c240GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 75: 75: Clause 15, page 12, line 30, leave out subsection (1) The noble Lord ...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c247GC (Link to this contribution) This is an idiot question, because I am a newcomer to all this, but is there any relation between jo...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c247GC (Link to this contribution) There is no requirement in any of what we are doing, even when we roll out the work-related activity...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c248GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 76: 76: Clause 15 , page 12, line 39, after ““function”” insert ““, excluding ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c248GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, I hope I can. It is probably right to say that it would not be right to specify subcontractors ...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c293GC (Link to this contribution) Given the Minister’s comments, for the moment I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by ...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c299-301GC (Link to this contribution) I shall try to respond quickly to these points. One of the central objectives of housing benefit ref...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c301GC (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Baroness clarify the position regarding the period of time that must elapse before int...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c301-2GC (Link to this contribution) I accept that offer and I am grateful to the noble Baroness for it. It is another example of somethi...

Lord Addington | 689 c302GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister gave us a helpful answer. Am I right to assume that the type of support that is called ...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c302GC (Link to this contribution) I could nod, but I should make it clear that we are building on the experience of the Pathways areas...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c305-7GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for giving me the opportunity to explain the pur...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c308GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful. On Question, Clause 59 agreed to. Clause 60 agreed to.

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c308GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 111: 111: After Clause 60, insert the following new Clause— ““ Medical examinat...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c307GC (Link to this contribution) After the noble Lord has had a chance to read Hansard, I will be happy to clarify any further points...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c276GC (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the Minister can help me just a fraction. I note from a Written Answer in another p...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c287GC (Link to this contribution) This has a history, does it not? It started in the housing Green Paper published in 2000, which ackn...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c281GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 103C: 103C: Clause 29 , page 20, line 16, at end insert— ““(2A) Regulations spe...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c311GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 113: 113: Clause 67, page 48, line 24, after ““(6)”” insert ““, (6A)”” On Ques...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c310GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but that is exactly the point: not ““and other unspecified””, but that it must be an exh...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c309GC (Link to this contribution) The expressions I used were not intended to be exhaustive. The definition of ““healthcare profession...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c276GC (Link to this contribution) That is exactly the point I sought to make. Perhaps the Minister would care to withdraw his response...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c276GC (Link to this contribution) Unless I have misunderstood the noble Lord, is it not cash-limited within each local authority? When...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c262-3GC (Link to this contribution) I admit to being slightly unsure of where we are procedurally. I think that I am speaking in favour ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c261GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister has produced the thought that I was trying to articulate in very much clearer language....

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c260-1GC (Link to this contribution) I, for one, put up an invisible hand to accept the invitation—as did the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood—t...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c268GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister emphasise to the Department of Health that there are 750,000 people who, Citizens ...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c254GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the Minister—I was quoting directly from the Commons when I said that no decisions ha...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c255GC (Link to this contribution) If we are seriously now saying that a vulnerable, perhaps mentally ill, claimant who has had his ben...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c255GC (Link to this contribution) That is really an unfair representation of what has been said. If we are to deal with this properly,...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c254-5GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord referred to the criticism by the JCHR. I emphasise that the effect of Clause 15(7) is...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c256GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister, but the Bill has a wide title. Later this afternoon, the noble Lord, ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c256GC (Link to this contribution) To deal with this a little more fully, the provisions are here because we must deal with regulations...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c257GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 85: 85: Clause 18, page 15, line 34, leave out subsection (7) and insert— ““( ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c258GC (Link to this contribution) Our amendment in this group is designed to prevent current and future pilot schemes coming under the...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c239-40GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to confirm that this is a sensible provision. Clause 14 will permit the Secretary of Sta...

Baroness Meacher | 689 c246GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may follow up that point, and I hope that the Minister will forgive me if this issue has a...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c242GC (Link to this contribution) We return to the fray this afternoon with a somewhat depleted team on this side of the Committee. Th...

Baroness Meacher | 689 c250-1GC (Link to this contribution) I want to make a couple of points in relation to Amendment No. 79, which focuses on the need to elim...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c247GC (Link to this contribution) I have another daft laddie question to complete this important debate, as the Minister described it....

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c247GC (Link to this contribution) Again, the noble Lord makes an interesting point. It is too early; we really need to see what result...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c247-8GC (Link to this contribution) That brings me neatly to my question about contracts. Presumably, they will be block contracts. I am...

Subjects

Disability

Disclosure of information

Care homes

Benefits rules

Age

Anti-social behaviour

Advisory services

Housing benefit

Fraud

Employment

Income support