Government of Wales Bill

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for drawing that to our attention. The point that I was making was that the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, quoted the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, who said something else on Report—that: "““If there ever was an attempt to aggrandise a Welsh valley in the way that Liverpool did almost 50 years ago, it would be the biggest boost to Welsh nationalism that has ever occurred””.—[Official Report, 28/6/06; col. 1289.]" The Government entirely agree. It is almost inconceivable that a future Secretary of State, from whatever party, would behave in such a recklessly provocative and incendiary fashion. I cannot imagine the circumstances that arose with the Liverpool example 40 years ago ever being repeated. The Government’s expectation is that, if differences arose between the two Governments, every possible effort would be made to resolve them through discussion and dialogue, with both sides fully aware of the sensitivities involved. A number of noble Lords have raised the business of equality—that all that Wales wishes for is equality with England. It is important to remember that, if the relevant Secretary of State intervened, he or she would have to take into account the interests of England and Wales. Under the present settlement, that is the constitutional position. There is no reason for noble Lords, particularly those from Wales, to be as concerned as they are. It is still necessary for the Secretary of State to have the power to intervene as a last resort if agreement is not reached and he or she believes that the actions of Welsh Ministers will have a serious impact on water resources, supply or quality in England. A crucial point made on Report—I think it was by the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell—was that the geological nature of Wales was not linked to the political map, and the geological reality is that the great rivers of Wales flow into England and not the other way round. Equally, a large part of the water supply to England comes from Wales, but Wales does not rely for a large part of its water supply on England, if any part at all. The provision reflects the way in which most of the water flows—out of Wales and into England, and not the other way round. The Bill has to provide for the intervention powers because of that reality. Matters such as the approval of significant new development by Welsh Ministers could have a serious adverse effect on water resources, supply or quality in England. The intervention powers provide an important and effective safeguard for the interests of water users in England, but there is no reason to expect that the Assembly or Welsh Ministers would use their powers irresponsibly and that the intervention powers would need to be used other than as a very last resort. As we have had another interesting debate on the subject, I hope that there is an understanding of the position and that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.