Government of Wales Bill

My Lords, in rising to support my noble friend’s amendment, I want to take up the exchange that has just taken place and the arguments advanced at an earlier stage of our proceedings by the Minister, who basically said that the role of the Secretary of State is to find out what the rest of the United Kingdom thinks and then express those views—really, therefore, to decide whether there should be an English veto over the request advanced by the Welsh Assembly. The noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, was suggesting that it was perfectly reasonable that the Secretary of State should have the opportunity to argue the case to Parliament, but that is not what the Bill provides for. It says that the Secretary of State can refuse to lay the order in the first place and therefore cut off any chance of its proceeding. My response to the Minister is that of course the Secretary of State can consult and report to Parliament what in his and the Government’s judgment are the views and opinions in England. Surely it is then for Parliament, in this House and in another place, to listen to those arguments and to decide on their validity; it is for Parliament to weigh up whether it should take more account of the views of the rest of the United Kingdom put to them by the Secretary of State than of the views of the Welsh Assembly, which would have requested that the referendum be held. It would be open to Parliament to say no to the Welsh Assembly, although in my judgment it would be unwise to veto the proposal at that stage if the request had been made. I believe that my noble friend is right in seeking to delete the power of the Secretary of State to say no. Of course the Secretary of State can express his opinion and report on the outcome of his consultations, but surely it is then for Parliament—the other place in particular, in this case—to decide on the merits of the order. That is a perfectly adequate defence.