Pensions Reform

That is true to some extent. I also find some pensioners who, having taken advantage of the many offers available to them, say that they have never been so well off. There are two views. At many pensioners meetings, I am first harangued by those who take that position, and then quietly spoken to at the end of the meeting by those who say, ““I didn’t really like some of what was said to you, Kali, and I’d like to put a different view to you.”” The two arguments never seem to meet. I make no apology for the fact that when we came into government our first objective was to tackle pensioner poverty; that had to be the right way to go. However, it would not be right to continue with a scheme that would fix means-testing in perpetuity. We need not feel ashamed about helping those who were the very poorest and ensuring that the resources that we had were targeted at them, but we must find a way to move on from that. I feel as though I am in ““Back to the Future””, as I have debated this issue for many years. The first time I spoke about what we should do about what was then called the demographic challenge was in 1986. Now, 20 years on, it is a demographic time bomb. We have been talking about this for such a long time, with so many different views, that a consensus had to be reached at some point. It has taken us a long time to get to where we are today, but it was vital to do so. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) asked us to look forward still further, to 2064. That briefly reminded me of the advert that I saw for a clairvoyants’ event that had been cancelled due to unforeseen circumstances. The problem is that as time goes on, the period that we have to consider when we think about pensions must be a long way into the future but cannot be fixed in stages. The hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose) made an impressive speech in which he said that he was worried about setting staging posts for events because that would undermine sustainability and the settled position that we might arrive at in this Chamber. Some people say that we have to predict the future and stage everything precisely, while others say that we might have to adapt in the light of unforeseen changes. Both arguments are equally valid. There have been huge demographic changes since 1986. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) said at the beginning of his speech, our life expectancy has already risen since the beginning of the debate. That will continue to be true. However, we must also take into account the other social changes that are going on. Young people are not looking after themselves as well—they are not taking exercise or eating properly. If a child aged seven, eight or nine is eating burgers all the time, although we are trying hard to get them to eat something else, we do not yet know what will be the impact on their life expectancy. What will their work pattern be like? What will their life be like as a consequence of social changes and changes to work-life balance and what happens in the workplace? Will the economic changes that have made this debate possible be sustained into the future? My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, North (Mr. Rooney), who is not here at the moment, spoke about the impact on people who might need retraining having left one job at the age of 50 or 55 in the expectation of finding another. When I studied this in 1986, it was clear even then that the higher the level of unemployment and the less people earn, the more likely it is that a person will be considered old. At that time of very high unemployment, particularly in Liverpool, a person was identified as being too old to work even at 35, because it was cheaper and easier to employ young people and get rid of them quickly. Employers wanted that flexible labour market. That is not today’s environment. Sustainability in the work force and the economy cannot be accurately predicted for the next 50 or 60 years, although I would like to think that it could be. Let us be honest with ourselves and accept that labour markets, work patterns and new technologies change. That will and must have an impact on future pension expectations, not least in relation to the amount that people can afford to pay in. That is especially true for young people, among whom we are seeing a distinct change in social behaviour. For our generation—if I can be so bold as to say that, looking around the Chamber and seeing far too many people who are younger than me—buying something today and paying tomorrow was not the norm. I grew up in a household where we paid for what we could afford and did not buy what we had not saved for. Things have changed. Young people today expect to use a credit card, and there are worries about the amount of debt that they take on. Is it right for those same people to be asked to pay into a pension? I think that it is. If they had to choose between the kind of holiday that they can pay for only with a credit card, and the type of holiday that they can afford at the same time as paying into their pension, that would be a desirable social change. It would be right to ask people to contribute to their pension at an early age. I lecture the young people in my family about that ad nauseam. I see their eyes glaze over every time I do it, but it is necessary.