Government of Wales Bill

My Lords, we appreciate the aim of the noble Baroness in tabling Amendments Nos. 19 and 74 to ensure that there is proper and informed democratic control by the Assembly of the budgets for the persons and bodies listed in the amendment. I reassure the noble Baroness, however, that these amendments are not necessary. On Amendment No. 19, adequate pre-budget scrutiny procedures for the Auditor General and the ombudsman are already provided for in the Bill. The Auditor General’s estimate will go to the Assembly’s Audit Committee, as it does now, by virtue of paragraph 12 of Schedule 8 to the Bill. The Audit Committee will receive that estimate at least five months before the beginning of each financial year. The committee must examine it and then lay it before the Assembly; it may modify the estimate before doing so, but only after prior consultation with the Auditor General. The estimate procedure for the Public Services Ombudsman is set out in paragraph 15 of Schedule 1 to the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Act 2005 as amended by paragraph 85(12) of Schedule 10 to this Bill. Under that procedure the ombudsman’s estimate will go to one of the Assembly’s committees, which the Bill requires to be specified in Standing Orders. The procedure is otherwise identical to that for the Auditor General’s estimate. The committee will receive the estimate by 1 November prior to the relevant financial year. They must then examine it and lay it before the Assembly. Again, they can propose modifications, subject to prior consultation with the ombudsman. The Bill does not specify any particular procedure for scrutiny of the Assembly Commission’s budget. However, it is open to the Assembly in formulating its new standing orders to provide for an estimate, or pre-budget procedure for the Assembly Commission, should it choose to do so. That is, rightly, a matter for the Assembly. Turning to the Children’s and Older People’s Commissioners, as discussed in Committee, the mechanism specified in the Bill is the same in principle as the mechanism already established for the Children’s Commissioner. The splitting of the legislature from the executive will formalise and clarify the Assembly’s role in scrutinising the Welsh Ministers. As part of that role, Assembly Members will have the power to scrutinise the Welsh Ministers’ budget. They will be aided in scrutinising the part of it that relates to the Children’s Commissioner by the provision of an estimate, as provided for in paragraph 6 of Schedule 2 to the Care Standards Act. Similarly, paragraph 9 of Schedule 1 to the Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Bill will provide for the Assembly to be aided in its scrutiny of the part of the Welsh Ministers’ budget that relates to the commissioner by the provision of an estimate. If Assembly Members are not satisfied that the commissioner is receiving adequate funding, they will be able to hold the Welsh Ministers to account, thus ensuring that there is proper and effective political and democratic accountability. Amendment No. 74 would require Welsh Ministers to include in the annual budget motion those amounts which have been approved by the Assembly for the Assembly Commission, the Auditor General, the ombudsman, and the Children’s and Older People’s Commissioners during the pre-budget scrutiny process that would be imposed on standing orders by Amendment No. 19. It is a key responsibility of the Welsh Assembly Government to plan and put forward a budget to deliver the commitments it was elected on, and to maximise the benefits of utilising those resources on behalf of the taxpayer. Limiting the discretion of the elected Government to do that runs counter to our very system of government. With great respect, we think this amendment goes too far by allowing the estimates laid before the Assembly in respect of those persons and bodies to dictate the content of the annual budget motion. In the Government’s view, the proper relationship is that the estimates are provided to aid the Assembly’s scrutiny of the annual budget motion moved by the Welsh Ministers under Clause 124(1). It is a well established constitutional principle that it is for the executive to request resources and for the legislature to consider whether or not to authorise them. In moving an annual budget motion on behalf of themselves, the Assembly Commission, the Auditor General and the ombudsman, the Welsh Ministers are inviting the Assembly to allocate a finite amount of resources in the annual budget motion. If, having had the benefit of considering the estimates for the persons and bodies listed above, the Assembly is not satisfied with the amounts proposed in the annual budget motion, it can reject it. On that basis we believe the Bill already provides a proper and effective mechanism for informed, democratic control. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, asked about the Latimer House guidelines. The Government are aware that clause 6 of part 6 of the principles of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association provides that,"““An all party committee of Members of Parliament should review and administer Parliament’s budget which should not be subject to amendment by the Executive””." The Assembly’s Standing Order Committee has agreed the principle that, where appropriate, the committee should take account of those guidelines in drawing up its recommendations for the Assembly’s new standing orders. The Government do not believe that the mechanism under the Bill would be in any way inconsistent with the Latimer House guidelines. Ultimately the budget for the Assembly Commission is voted on by the Assembly itself as a separate and distinct part of the annual budget motion. If the Assembly is not satisfied that the amount proposed in that motion is sufficient for the commission, the Welsh Ministers risk losing their budget motion. The Assembly has the right to keep rejecting the annual budget motion until it is satisfied that the amount allocated to the commission is sufficient. I hope, with the explanation I have given, that the noble Baroness will be able to withdraw the amendments.