Government of Wales Bill

moved Amendment No. 19:"Page 20, line 4, at end insert—" ““(1A) The standing orders must include provision for the scrutiny and approval of the budgets of— (a)   the Assembly Commission, (b)   the Auditor General, (c)   the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, (d)   the Children’s Commissioner for Wales, (e)   the Commissioner for Older People in Wales, and may include provision for the scrutiny and approval of the budgets of any other specified body or person which is funded from the Welsh Consolidated Fund.”” The noble Baroness said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 19, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 74. With these amendments, I am returning to issues we debated in Committee about the extent to which certain budgets can be protected against the Executive. Amendment No. 19 would add a new subsection (1A) to Clause 31, which says that the standing orders which are the subject of Clause 31 have to include provision for the scrutiny and approval of the budgets of five named persons or bodies: the Assembly Commission, the Auditor General, the Public Services Ombudsman, the Children’s Commissioner and the Commissioner for Older People in Wales. It also says that other bodies can be added to this list. I do not think that Amendment No. 19 itself is very controversial; it merely specifies some matters that will, for the most part, be covered by the standing orders to be drawn up under Clause 31. We know that the audit committee will deal with the Auditor General’s estimates, as set out in paragraph 12 of Schedule 8. The Minister told us in Committee that standing orders would have to deal with estimates for the Assembly Commission and for the Public Services Ombudsman; that is dealt with in paragraph 85(12) of Schedule 10. The addition of the two commissioners—for children and older people—raises slightly different issues. The Care Standards Act 2000 requires the Children’s Commissioner’s estimates to be considered by the executive committee and laid before the Assembly. Paragraph 28 of Schedule 11 to the Bill currently passes this function to Ministers, thus diminishing the role of the Assembly. The Commissioner for Older People in Wales is covered by a Bill which is before another place, but that has the financial estimates being put before the Assembly Cabinet. My amendment is to this extent designed to ensure that there are proper scrutiny provisions so that Assembly Members can oversee the funding of the commissioners. I am aware from our debate in Committee that the Government want to pursue a non-departmental public body model for the two commissioners, which gives Parliament only a very indirect say in the funding that goes to such bodies. That model works very well all the time that the Government give the bodies enough money to allow them to pursue their functions properly. But when the Government impose a financial squeeze—which often happens, whether for good reasons or bad—Parliament, in the case of the UK, or the Assembly in Wales, would be left without an effective voice. I believe that the Government’s preferred solution is in contrast to the position for the equivalent commissioner for children in Scotland, where I understand that funding is determined by the Scottish Parliament, not Ministers. The meat of Amendment No. 19 is found in Amendment No. 74, which amends Clause 124, the clause that provides that annual budget motions have to be presented by a Welsh Minister. At present, the Bill would allow that budget motion to include amounts which did not include enough to allow the various persons listed in Amendment No. 19 to do their work effectively. My Amendment No. 74 would in effect protect those budgets once they had been scrutinised and approved. In Committee, the Minister said that if Assembly Members do not like what Welsh Ministers put forward, they can reject the budget motion. But that is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut; it is not practical, everyday politics. However, there is a practical, everyday reason to ensure that important parts of the constitutional arrangements for Wales are properly funded. That is why my Amendment No. 74 says that the annual budget motion has to include the amounts approved under proposed subsection (1A) of Clause 31, as inserted by my Amendment No. 19. The Minister’s response in Committee was surprising in the light of the Latimer House guidelines, which followed an initiative by Commonwealth heads of government in 1998. The guidelines state quite clearly:"““An all-party committee of Members of Parliament should review and administer Parliament’s budget which should not be subject to amendment by the executive””." This clearly applies to the funding of the Assembly Commission and, I argue, must also apply to constitutional officers such as the Auditor General and the ombudsman. Will the Minister say why the Government have chosen to ignore the Latimer House guidelines in the Bill? We believe that there should be no room in the annual budget motion for the Executive to decide to put less money than in the budgets for bodies. The budget motion must fund them to the extent of approved budgets. That is a matter of principle. I beg to move.