Government of Wales Bill

The Liberal Democrats have an amendment in this group. Amendment No. 84 seeks to transfer to the Assembly, not the First Minister, the task of moving and passing a resolution to make an Order in Council for a referendum in Part 4. Amendment No. 86 would remove the ability of the Secretary of State to refuse a referendum if the Assembly wanted it. It would therefore reduce the powers of the Secretary of State in that regard. The elected Assembly should be able to say when a referendum would take place. I hope that the Committee sees the point of that amendment. I was extremely interested to hear the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell. He referred to my noble friend Lord Thomas. I am sure that on another occasion my noble friend will address the points that the noble Lord made. Suffice it to say that, for very good reasons of a celebratory nature, he and his wife are attending a meeting with a religious adviser to the Speaker, but he will return to the Committee. The noble Lord made some extremely interesting points. I respect what he said about accepting the result of the previous referendum. I know that that is the case and that is an honourable position to take. The point about a two-thirds majority triggering a referendum is a very interesting one. I must be absolutely frank here. It is my party’s policy—and has been for a very long time—not to have a referendum on this matter. I refer to the principle of a Welsh Assembly being accepted in the 1997 referendum. The Liberal Democrats oppose Clauses 102, 103, 104 and 105, which all refer to the establishment of a referendum. The Committee will note that we are being consistent in opposing referendums. I believe that the concept of a referendum will be manipulated—I believe that has already been tacitly admitted—and that it will occur when it is politically expedient to hold one. The rush of the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, to support a referendum may be tactical. I suspect that there is an element of that, although I am expressing that very diplomatically. The Conservative Party has undergone a conversion with regard to a referendum on this issue. A referendum can be used to political advantage. That is one of the reasons that the Liberal Democrats have not gone along that route. We realise the weaknesses of that approach. ““Trust the people”” is a great rallying cry. However, it depends what the electorate are confronted with in a referendum, the nature of the relevant question, how it is phrased and emphasised. We all know what can happen where the wording of a referendum question is open to manipulation. We shall see what happens but we do not think that it is appropriate—at present anyway—to consider a referendum. However, one may occur in the future. It is ironic to hear the swings and roundabouts of the argument. The noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, rightly referred to the Secretary of State’s remark in another place that he did not feel that it was possible for a referendum to be won at the present time, yet polling over the past 12 months has consistently demonstrated—there have been three polls to my knowledge—that people in Wales are in favour of giving many more powers to the Assembly and of having primary legislative powers. It is very much a question for debate at the moment. I am particularly speaking in respect of Amendments Nos. 84 and 86.