Government of Wales Bill

May I say to the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams) that he and I agree, and our parties agree, that primary powers should be in this Bill? His party properly and honourably has campaigned for that for generations. I am proud to be the first Labour Secretary of State to be putting primary powers in a Bill. The hon. Gentleman referred to the 1979 referendum and the circumstances of it. I am haunted by that, although I did not take part in the campaign. From a distance I supported the yes campaign. I am also haunted by the narrowness of the vote in 1997. Unlike 1979, the Labour party was not bitterly divided on the question in 1997. In 1979, there was a minority saying yes and a majority probably no. The referendum was lost four to one. I do not think that we should go anywhere near a referendum that could produce those circumstances. That is why I built in carefully a two-thirds vote in the Assembly, which would require at least, in the current political configuration and that for the foreseeable future, Welsh Labour, Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats to be united, as we were in 1997. Even then, the referendum was only narrowly won. If we put in place a mechanism that could result in an opportunistic vote in the Assembly with the current political arithmetic, the Opposition, even for the sake of embarrassing the Government—it is difficult to foresee, but one could imagine it—could force on the ruling Welsh Assembly Labour Government and on the Government here a referendum that could not be won by any objective assessment. As my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) pointed out, that would do terrible damage to the cause of devolution and to the cause in which the hon. Member for Caernarfon believes—that of an Assembly with primary powers. This is not a roadblock; it is a sensible precaution. We would need a consensus in the Assembly, reflecting the views of directly elected Members only, and support in Parliament to follow. I ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw his amendment, not because we disagree about the principle of primary powers in this Bill, or about having a strong Welsh Assembly or about the cause of devolution, but because if he were to get his way it could create circumstances that would take us nearer to 1979, which would be a disaster for the whole devolution cause.