Government of Wales Bill

I shall resist the temptation and note only that the 40 per cent. threshold then imposed was widely seen in Wales and in Scotland as being a wrecking move. There is a great danger that the higher threshold in the clause—not 40 per cent. but 66 per cent. before even an application could be made for a referendum—will be seen, too, as a wrecking move. It will be seen in a similar light. Of course, in 1979 the referendum in Wales was lost disastrously, and it took us many years to recover from that. However, if I may allude briefly to the situation in Scotland, it is significant that the vote was carried in Scotland, but the 40 per cent. threshold was not achieved. That gave rise to a great deal of conflict and argument—the very controversy that the Secretary of State said only a few minutes ago that he was mindful to avoid in Wales. However, the Government are in danger of sowing further seeds of controversy, not about whether part 4 powers should come into effect but about whether the people of Wales should even be asked their opinion on the matter. The Secretary of State has an aversion to controversy around this issue, as he noted in speaking to amendment No. 31. In that respect, he should take the opportunity now to avoid further conflict on the two-thirds majority issue. The Government will contend, I suppose, that the two-thirds majority would indicate a consensus. We have heard the Secretary of State and the Minister say that a number of times and that we should not proceed without such a majority. It is for the Minister to answer the points that I and perhaps other hon. Members will make.