Government of Wales Bill

I am happy to receive it because fortunately I am not running for the leadership of the Liberal Democrats, although I might make a better job of it than some other people. As Chairman of the Committee, the hon. Member for Aberavon (Dr. Francis) has done a sterling job in difficult circumstances. I do not think that his Committee was fully consulted by the Secretary of State. I certainly do not think that it has been taken along in the process. He approaches the problem from a different dimension. Whereas the right hon. Member for Swansea, West may not be a great enthusiast for devolution, the hon. Gentleman is, but even he has problems with the way in which the Bill stands. My right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer), in the bravura performance that we have come to expect, made the points in his inimitable fashion. It was interesting that the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Havard) was tempted to participate in the debate. He said that we must not run too far ahead of the people. I agree entirely. I was delighted that he participated because we have not been treated to many contributions by the Labour Members who represent Welsh constituencies. It was good to see the hon. Gentleman making a contribution. My hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T.C. Davies) said that the proposals would make Wales a political football, and he was quite right. I have listened carefully to the Secretary of State. He says that nothing will happen until 2011—it might be some time after that—but he is trying to legislate today. He also said that there might be a period when Westminster was in conflict with Cardiff; I am not entirely sure that Westminster is not in conflict with Cardiff at the moment, but I do not want to intrude on the private agonies of the Labour party. But that is no excuse for bringing forward this legislation. I do not accept his arguments. I see, rather, a strange consensus. He said that he wanted consensus, and he has it; from Swansea, West, from Suffolk, Coastal, from Aberavon, from, I think, Merthyr Tydfil, and from Chesham and Amersham. Therefore, I have no choice but to put my amendment to the vote in order to place on record our belief that the Bill should not provide the opportunity for repeat referendums and for turning Wales into a political football. By not acceding to any of the amendments that I or the hon. Member for Aberavon have tabled, the Secretary of State has brought this vote on himself. Question put, That the amendment be made:— The Committee divided: Ayes 152, Noes 313.