Government of Wales Bill

The hon. Lady says that I am making a false equation between the two situations, and that I do not fully understand them. I humbly suggest that in the nine years that I have been speaking on Northern Ireland matters on behalf of the Liberal Democrats, in the various debates that I have had on exactly this point I may have picked up one or two salient points regarding the comparisons that I make. In fairness, I must recognise that the hon. Lady did not take part in those debates, but the Secretary of State for Wales, coincidentally—and, on this occasion, helpfully, I think—can provide his own perspective, if he is the Minister who will respond to the amendments. I suspect that he will agree with me that there is no fundamental difference in having a significant referendum on constitutional arrangements in Northern Ireland and having a significant referendum on constitutional arrangements in Wales. As for the hon. Lady’s second point, the issue at stake is not whether there is a difference of principle, but whether in Wales—I shall focus on Wales for the moment—it is acceptable to give the Welsh people one chance, and if the answer is no, to terminate any prospect of developing the devolution process further. I was not sympathetic to the idea of having a referendum in the first place. However, that is not the main point with this string of amendments, so notwithstanding that, I shall turn to the comments made by the Father of the House, who paraphrased me and suggested that I had said, ““We can go forward, but we can’t go back.”” Actually, that is not far from what I said. More to the point, it is exactly what the leader of his party, the Prime Minister, has said; he said that he had no reverse gear. He has also said that every time that he has initiated a reform, he wishes that he had gone further. [Interruption.] I hear howls of woe from the Government Benches, suggesting a rebellion among the Labour MPs from Wales who are here. I understand that they may not be happy with this. Nevertheless, my understanding is that if we initiate some constitutional changes, we must make the assumption that, the principle having been set, there will be an evolutionary process that goes with it. The Father of the House is entirely justified in taking a different view. It is a difference of judgement. However, on behalf of myself and the Liberal Democrats, I would summarise the situation by saying that once the devolution process has been set in motion, there will be a momentum within it that will militate in favour of giving more powers to the Welsh Assembly, rather than stalling at some fairly arbitrary point by putting a cap on the number of referendums that can take place. I understand the case for having some kind of structure and timetable governing the frequency of referendums. I am less unsympathetic to the attempt, rudimentary as it may be, in a couple of the amendments that have been tabled on that basis, because that more closely reflects the situation in Northern Ireland. However, the Liberal Democrats are not very keen on having a referendum on this matter at all, because we think that it is acceptable and appropriate for us to assume that the Welsh Assembly should have the same kind of powers as Scotland. I do not need to dwell on that, because we had a fairly significant debate on that subject yesterday in the context of changing the name from the Welsh Assembly to the Welsh Senedd. In conclusion, I understand that there is a genuine difference of view. I believe that there is a contradiction between the way in which the Conservatives are approaching this piece of legislation and their approach to Northern Ireland legislation. I believe that that comparison is valid, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about it.