Government of Wales Bill

The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) has understated his case. The three amendments are most important. Paragraphs (a) and (c) in subsection (1) differ from paragraph (b) because paragraph (b) contains the word ““serious””. I find that peculiar, because it means that the provisions that are the least precise may be activated when the consequence or effect of the Measure is not serious, but merely adverse. It is extremely difficult to envisage how paragraphs (a) or (c) would be used. They can be used even in circumstances where the Minister would not have to show that the ““adverse effect”” was serious. Even the word ““effect””, used in paragraphs (a) and (c), is less powerful than ““impact””, which is used in paragraph (b); an effect is a passing matter. I imagine that the phrase ““adverse effect”” refers to a range of issues—the list of fields specified in part 1 of schedule 5 is considerable, encompassing a huge number of areas. Under the clause, a Secretary of State, by diktat, would be able to say that a Measure that has a passing or glancing effect on some matter of importance—sufficiently important for the Assembly to feel that a Measure is needed—should be stopped because he has ““reasonable grounds to believe”” that it would have an ““adverse effect””. It is difficult to imagine that a Secretary of State would not be able to stop anything that he did not like. The condition of having ““reasonable grounds”” does not help, so vague is the wording used in the following paragraphs. In my opinion, paragraphs (a) and (c) are entirely otiose. Their presence suggests that the Bill will not do what it is supposed to. I have all sorts of doubts about the processes set out in the Bill—they are far too opaque. However, if we are to proceed, we must not pretend that the Bill is a means of enhancing the powers of the Assembly, when, just in case the Assembly does something of which we do not approve, we have put in a few get-out clauses to keep power in the hands, not of Parliament, but of the Secretary of State. That is the second reason why I feel so strongly about this matter: I do not like Ministers having such powers without reference back to Parliament. Through the Bill, in effect, Parliament is delegating further legislative powers to the Assembly, but the Government are ensuring that Ministers will still have power, even though Parliament has delegated it. Both paragraphs (a) and (c) are unacceptable. On subsection (1)(b), I agree with the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy. Either we trust the Welsh people or we do not. It is extremely difficult for me to accept that the Welsh people have to be singled out and measures taken to ensure that, where water is concerned, they should not in any way or in any circumstances be able to do anything that might upset the plans of English Ministers. I have another reason to object. These days, when even some of our less educated newspapers are beginning to understand the importance of climate change, the issues relating to water have become more important, not less. I do not want to give the impression to the Welsh people—or to the English people—that if we are short of water, our first response will be to extend the resource, rather than to improve retention and reduce use. The clause is very old fashioned. It suggests that Wales is a provider of water for England. It does not say that England and Wales together must deal with the problems of the shortage of water, the effect of climate change, the need to restrain our use of water, and the like. The clause comes from a civil servant. Having been a Minister for 16 years, I know the sort of civil servant who would have drafted it.