Terrorism Bill

Yes, and my hon. Friend puts the point extremely well. This Bill is about saying that terrorism, wherever it occurs, is wrong. People should not murder, maim and kill others in any context. My right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham) made the absolutely valid point that legislation alone will not resolve the problems that we face. It is about winning hearts and minds, good policing, effective community relationships and better intelligence. But I say to him and to my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central that we need to think very carefully about this issue. If we are to limit terrorist offences simply to civilians, will that suggest that it is legitimate to attack police officers and innocent members of the armed forces? That is a very difficult distinction to make, but we will explore it in Committee. The hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) made his usual passionate speech on this issue; he will doubtless participate in our subsequent debate. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary should have allowed the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) to intervene. He spoke in favour of the Bill, and I was grateful for his emphasis on ensuring that our measures are proportionate to the threat that we face. I was disappointed by the points that my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin)—he is not in his place, but he apologised to me in advance for his absence—made about the police. He said that if they could use a longer detention period, they might sit on the records for 30 or 40 days. If he had personal knowledge of the work that the police have done since 7 July—of the effort that they have put into the investigations, and the thousands of hours of CCTV footage that they have examined—he would realise that they are not likely to sit on documents for that long a period without taking action. Of course they are keen to minimise the detention period. I welcome the support of the hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr. Clappison) for the Bill’s provisions. He has some concerns, and I am sure that we will debate them in Committee. My hon. Friends the Members for Dewsbury (Mr. Malik) and for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) made extremely good speeches. I am particularly grateful for the action of my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury in supporting his local community and for the stand that he has taken on these issues, sometimes in difficult circumstances. I welcome the support of the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) for the measures in the Bill and I look forward to debating it further with him. My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, who is now Chairman of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, has looked at these issues in great detail and I welcome what he said about the Bill representing a proportionate response in human rights terms. I greatly welcome his support. The hon. Member for Leeds, North-West (Greg Mulholland) made a telling contribution about his shock at the events of 7 July. I have been out on many visits to the Muslim community across the country, including Leeds, and I found some excellent work going on to bring people together to face the threat. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden) about the importance of keeping engaged with young people. Together with the Muslim community, there are now seven groups working with women and young people to tackle extremism, and seeking to secure the support of imams and mosques. I have to say that the young people have probably formed the most exciting working group so far, which has come out with some excellent suggestions about road shows and how they can work to tackle extremism. I am delighted about that. The hon. Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) rightly raised international issues. I can tell him that our international strategy is acknowledged as one of the best, and we intend to continue to support other countries in fighting terrorism. Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. Hendrick) set out, in an excellent speech, how the world is changing and how the terrorists threaten everything that we believe in. I welcome his support for the Bill. The Bill addresses difficult issues that represent some of the most important ones facing our country. I entirely acknowledge that legislation alone will not be enough to protect our people, but it is vital that we have sufficient powers to intervene early to disrupt terrorism, to prosecute terrorists and bring them to justice. That is what the Bill is all about. It is about ensuring that we have on our statute book the legislation necessary to meet the ever-changing and ever-evolving threat of international terrorism that we face. We are desperately trying to strike the right balance. We must have a society in which we respect the rule of law. There will always be tension between our rights as individuals and the rights of the community. I was in the Library quite late last night, after a lengthy debate on another Bill, and I thought about how people have dealt with those tensions over the years. Those tensions—over securing the balance between security and liberty —are nothing new. It was John Stuart Mill who, more than 100 years ago, effectively summed up that tension and the balance that we are trying to strike today, when he said:"““All that makes existence valuable to anyone depends on the enforcement of restraints upon the actions of other people””." That is the balance that must be struck: in exercising our freedoms, it is sometimes necessary to restrain other people’s freedoms. Tonight, we are focused on getting the right balance. I look forward with great anticipation—and, dare I say, pleasure—to the Committee stage of the Bill on the Floor of the House, during which we can further explore some of the complex and challenging issues. I am absolutely convinced that, on the Labour Benches, we want legislation that is practical, workable, effective and will protect the people of this country from the undoubted terrorist threat that we face. I think that the first responsibility of any Government is to protect their citizens while, at the same time, safeguarding the fundamental freedoms that make our democracy one under which people want to live and bring up their families. I am determined that that is what we will do. I commend the Bill to the House. The House divided: Ayes 472, Noes 94.