UK Parliament / Open data

Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

Lords committee stage third day. Clauses 5 to 10 agreed to. Bill reported without amendment. (Part 2 of 2).
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
836 cc454-506 
Session
2023-24
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill 2023-24. Brought from the Commons
Thursday, 18 January 2024
Bills
House of Lords
Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill
Monday, 19 February 2024
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2024-0304
Monday, 4 March 2024
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2024-0308
Wednesday, 6 March 2024
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Show all related items (7)
Deposited Paper DEP2024-0307
Wednesday, 6 March 2024
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2024-0306
Wednesday, 6 March 2024
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2024-0310
Wednesday, 6 March 2024
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Scriven | 836 c454 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Scriven

57: Clause 5, page 5, line 13, leave out subsection (2)

M...

Lord Scriven | 836 cc454-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this part of the Committee’s deliberation is on Clause 5, “Interim measures of the Euro...


Show all contributions (130)
Baroness Chakrabarti | 836 cc455-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have Amendments 58, 60 and 61 in this group, and I share them with the noble and lear...

Lord Faulks | 836 c457 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Baroness said that the Strasbourg court would make such an order only in dire straits, ...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 836 cc457-9 (Link to this contribution)

No, I will not set that out, given the hour. I am talking about the general principle here, and I...

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 836 c459 (Link to this contribution)

I strongly agree with the point that the noble Baroness has made. My name is to Amendments 57 and...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 836 c460 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am listening carefully to the noble Lord. In all sincerity, what is the difference be...

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 836 c460 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord is well aware that the Strasbourg court has decided to pass various reforms and th...

Lord Howard of Lympne | 836 cc460-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the words that I am about to utter are largely not mine. They are the words of the nobl...

Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 836 c461 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I would like to follow those who have supported some of this group of amendments. I do ...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 836 c461 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I want to speak very briefly to group 5 amendments. Specifically, I go back to the answ...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c461 (Link to this contribution)

It might just be helpful if the noble Lord would apologise to my noble friend, to say that he was...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 836 cc461-2 (Link to this contribution)

It was very observant of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, but I was in here. I left to get my notes t...

Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 836 c462 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. My complaint about the use of the term “foreign c...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 836 c462 (Link to this contribution)

I think that is a moot point, in so far as—

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 836 cc462-3 (Link to this contribution)

I am always delighted to amuse the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti.

Articles 26 and 27 of ...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 836 c463 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I am very interested in his points about internat...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 836 cc463-4 (Link to this contribution)

I say, gently, to the noble Baroness that this issue with unrestricted, unprecedented levels of g...

Lord Hoffmann | 836 cc464-5 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord, Lord Howard, did me the honour of quoting a passage which I had written in a fore...

Bishop of Chichester | 836 c465 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I rise to speak briefly to Amendments 58, 60 and 61, to which my most reverend friend t...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 cc465-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti, and in the na...

Lord Faulks | 836 c466 (Link to this contribution)

The noble and learned Lord kindly referred to the Answer that I gave at the Dispatch Box, which I...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c467 (Link to this contribution)

I completely agree with that. The Ministerial Code is to be enforced politically, in many respect...

Lord Etherton | 836 cc467-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have given notice, with the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, of my intention to ...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 836 c468 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I was in a queue waiting to pay my bill at dinner and therefore arrived a few minutes l...

Lord Faulks | 836 cc468-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, these amendments all concern the response to interim orders of the European Court of Hu...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 836 c469 (Link to this contribution)

Hence, as I think I said, many of us across the Committee agreed with what some Ministers opposit...

Lord Faulks | 836 cc469-470 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed, but not only were reasons not given; the Government were not given an opportunity to come...

Lord Inglewood | 836 c470 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as someone who was called to the Bar many years ago and has not subsequently done a gre...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 836 cc470-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as a signatory to the stand-part proposition in the name of the noble and learned Lord,...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c472 (Link to this contribution)

I am not a lawyer and I do not wish to refer to any of the legal aspects of the amendment; there ...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c472 (Link to this contribution)

Just one moment—I will say what is reasonable and the noble Lord can say it is not. I think that,...

Lord Faulks | 836 c472 (Link to this contribution)

With respect, a statement of conclusion does not give any of the reasons for coming to that concl...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c472 (Link to this contribution)

It gave the decision that the ongoing domestic judicial review process should be concluded.

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 836 cc472-4 (Link to this contribution)

Of course it is right that NSK’s application for an interim injunction was heard by the High Cour...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c474 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Lord. I said that the court issued a press release; I did not say it made a jud...

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar | 836 cc474-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the ancient court known as the Sanhedrin, at its full complement, sat with 71 judges an...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 836 cc476-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendment 62 in the name of my noble friend Lord Coaker would ensure that a Minister of...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 cc477-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the Committee for an exceptionally lively, informed and lear...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 836 c478 (Link to this contribution)

Why, then, does the Victims and Prisoners Bill, as presented by the Government, require the Secre...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c478 (Link to this contribution)

I think the answer to the first point is that the Victims and Prisoners Bill relates to victims, ...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c478 (Link to this contribution)

Why is it not susceptible to judicial review? Ouster of the courts normally involves at least a p...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c478 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am not in a position to go into detailed discussion on this point, but I have given t...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c480 (Link to this contribution)

Could the Minister indicate when he might be in a position to debate it?

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 cc480-1 (Link to this contribution)

I undertake to correspond with the noble and learned Lord on that.

Amendments 58, 60 and 61...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 836 c481 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful that the Minister was kind enough to inform the Committee about the November reform...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c481 (Link to this contribution)

I gave the noble Baroness a list of the recommendations, or the proposed amendments to the rules,...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 836 c481 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister said, and I agree, that nothing in Clause 5 requires the United Kingdom to breach it...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c482 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, ultimately the matter for the Committee to take into account—I appreciate that I am not...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 836 c482 (Link to this contribution)

Surely it is relevant to this Committee, if we are being invited to pass Clause 5 into law, to kn...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c482 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in addressing the Committee, I outlined that the position in relation to international ...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 836 c482 (Link to this contribution)

I do not believe there is any dispute in this Committee about the proposition that the Minister h...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c482 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in view of the hour and the information which I have to hand, and given the stark terms...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 836 c482 (Link to this contribution)

Is it not the case that the answer to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, is that it d...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c482 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my noble friend but the answer “it depends” renders the matter, to a certain ext...

Lord Scriven | 836 cc482-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this predominantly technical debate on t...

Lord Coaker | 836 cc483-4 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Coaker

66: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause—

“Repo...

Lord Coaker | 836 cc484-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, with Amendments 66 and 67 we get to the meat, in many respects, of the Bill. We also st...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 cc485-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 76A, in my name and in the name of my noble friend Lady Ha...

Lord Lilley | 836 c486 (Link to this contribution)

Before the noble Lord moves on to the other bits, can he give us some estimate of how much it wil...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c486 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble Lord, who has been here during the various days in Committee. He will ...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c486 (Link to this contribution)

Well, that is the deterrent effect. Assuming that of those who are coming, 50% on a regular basis...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c486 (Link to this contribution)

Before I give way, presumably what the noble Lord wants to get to is a deterrent effect of 100%, ...

Lord Lilley | 836 c487 (Link to this contribution)

I asked the noble Lord for his estimate of what will happen if we have no deterrent effect and th...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c487 (Link to this contribution)

The Permanent Secretary at the Home Office was unable to do so. That is why he sought ministerial...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c487 (Link to this contribution)

I will address the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, and then happily give way to the ...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c487 (Link to this contribution)

From a sedentary position. I agree with the noble Lord. I think Hansard picked it up: a successfu...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 836 c487 (Link to this contribution)

It is very interesting that the noble Lord should refer to the effectiveness of the Albania arran...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 cc487-8 (Link to this contribution)

Even for the noble Lord, it is a bit of a leap to say that a negotiated relocation agreement with...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 836 cc488-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I want to speak in support of Amendment 67, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker....

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c489 (Link to this contribution)

That is an interesting thought, but I wonder whether it underlays this provision. I had assumed, ...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 836 c490 (Link to this contribution)

That may not be the reason why it has been so drafted, but it is my interpretation of one of the ...

Baroness Hamwee | 836 c490 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the poke is very difficult to interrogate. One of the provisions of the treaty is about...

Baroness Lawlor | 836 c490 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, are we not in danger of simply adding to the bureaucracy of the Bill by demanding an ex...

Baroness Hamwee | 836 c490 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is certainly the case that we ask for a lot of information, but if there is no oblig...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 cc490-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this relatively short debate. Just for the r...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c493 (Link to this contribution)

The question that is being asked all the time is: how does Parliament keep it under review and ra...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c493 (Link to this contribution)

I appreciate that it is not the answer that the noble and learned Lord was seeking—

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c493 (Link to this contribution)

Sorry, but it is not an answer at all to the question: how does Parliament in some way or another...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c493 (Link to this contribution)

I do not believe I have, my Lords. What I am trying to say here is that the joint committee has t...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c493 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful for that comment. Just for the record, it is 11.13 pm on the last day of Committee,...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c493 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we have gone into the operation of the joint committee and various other bodies in cons...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c493 (Link to this contribution)

What steps beyond the passage of this Bill are required for the UK Government to ratify the treat...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c493 (Link to this contribution)

Again, I say to the noble and learned Lord that we had a lengthy debate about that a couple of we...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c494 (Link to this contribution)

I am not sure that is an answer. Apart from the passage of this Bill, which is the only thing tha...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c494 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry, I disagree. I think I answered the question about what has to happen in order for the...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 836 c494 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister has just said that the numbers are uncapped, but in the walkthroughs and exercises, ...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c494 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not have the precise number. I will find it and write to the noble Lord. As I say,...

Lord Coaker | 836 c494 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not often say this to the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, but that was a really disappoin...

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 836 c494 (Link to this contribution)

It is quite wrong to insult the Civil Service.

Lord Coaker | 836 c495 (Link to this contribution)

Well, it is someone’s idea of how to answer that particular question, but it is not an answer.

Lord Coaker | 836 c495 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way in a moment.

Why can the Minister not give us some numbers and facts? That ...

Lord Lilley | 836 c495 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I bet if he were to ask the Australians their est...

Lord Coaker | 836 c496 (Link to this contribution)

I have agreed with the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, about Albania. There is no question between us ab...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c496 (Link to this contribution)

I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, is fully aware that the people he is referring to are econ...

Lord Coaker | 836 c496 (Link to this contribution)

With respect to the answer the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, gave us and the amendment I was speaking ...

Lord Coaker | 836 c496 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Coaker

68: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause—

“Retu...

Lord Coaker | 836 c497 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this is a very small amendment. I tabled this amendment because I read that, according ...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c497 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, for Amendment 68, but I cannot support its additio...

Lord Coaker | 836 c497 (Link to this contribution)

Could the Minister define the prison sentence? Is it any prison sentence, or is it a sentence of ...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 cc497-8 (Link to this contribution)

The provision in the treaty is reserved for the most serious crimes—one punishable by five years ...

Lord Scriven | 836 c498 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister quite rightly says that it is in the treaty—under Article 11, I assume. But that art...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c498 (Link to this contribution)

I will have to revert to the noble Lord with an answer to that question, which is a hypothetical ...

Lord Coaker | 836 c498 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister for his reply. I am grateful also to the noble Lord, Lord True, for his enco...

Bishop of Chelmsford | 836 c499 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

The Lord Bishop of Chelmsford

91: Clause 9, page 7, line 2, at end insert—

Bishop of Chelmsford | 836 cc499-501 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in moving Amendment 91 I am grateful to my friends the noble Lords, Lord Scriven and Lo...

Lord True | 836 c501 (Link to this contribution)

The right reverend Prelate obviously speaks with the authority of the Church of England. Is it th...

Bishop of Chelmsford | 836 c501 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I cannot speak on behalf of the Church of England. We are not whipped on these Benches,...

Lord Howard of Lympne | 836 c501 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am sorry to detain your Lordships at this late hour. I shall try to be very brief. Th...

Lord Faulks | 836 cc501-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will briefly comment on the relationship between Rwanda and the United Kingdom contai...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c502 (Link to this contribution)

I respect the noble Lord and am listening carefully to what he is saying, and as always, he makes...

Lord Faulks | 836 c502 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord is entirely correct about the prerogative, but Parliament, perhaps unusually, in c...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c502 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for giving way again. In essence, that was my argument in th...

Lord Faulks | 836 c502 (Link to this contribution)

That shows very little faith in a Government of whatever colour. This particular Government will ...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 cc502-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I strongly support the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford in moving the am...

Lord Scriven | 836 cc503-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have added my name to this amendment. Because of the lateness of the hour, I will not...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 cc504-5 (Link to this contribution)

Once again, I thank noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. As we have heard throughout ...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c505 (Link to this contribution)

If the agreement dies, will the future Act die with it?

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 cc505-6 (Link to this contribution)

As I understand it, yes.

Rwanda has a strong history of providing protection to those who n...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c506 (Link to this contribution)

Before the Minister concludes, I would be grateful if he could say what the mechanism will be for...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c506 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am not expert on treaty law but, as far as I understand it, that is the case. I am af...

Bishop of Chelmsford | 836 c506 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful to those who have participated in this debate. Given the late hour, I hop...

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