UK Parliament / Open data

Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

Lords committee stage third day. Clauses 3 and 4 agreed to. (Part 1 of 2).
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
836 cc381-443 
Session
2023-24
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill 2023-24. Brought from the Commons
Thursday, 18 January 2024
Bills
House of Lords
Legislative scrutiny: Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill. Joint Committee on Human Rights second report
Wednesday, 7 February 2024
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons
Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill. Constitution Committee third report
Friday, 9 February 2024
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill
Monday, 19 February 2024
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Lords

Show all related items (10)
Deposited Paper DEP2024-0294
Monday, 4 March 2024
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2024-0292
Monday, 4 March 2024
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2024-0293
Monday, 4 March 2024
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2024-0296
Tuesday, 12 March 2024
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2024-0300
Monday, 4 March 2024
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2024-0301
Monday, 4 March 2024
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 cc382-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the independent monitoring committee was established on 2 September 2022 under the term...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c383 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise for interrupting the Minister, but are we right to understand that he is saying that ...


Show all contributions (141)
Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c383 (Link to this contribution)

As far as I understand it, that is the case.

On a point that we will debate further in rela...

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 836 c383 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Minister say whether the reports from the monitoring committee to the joint committee wi...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 cc383-5 (Link to this contribution)

I cannot say that at the moment, but, as I have said, they will be published on a regular basis.<...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c384 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for outlining the elements of the ETIF and the MEDP, but ...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 cc384-6 (Link to this contribution)

I am happy to commit to providing as much detail as I can in the letter that the noble Lord reque...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c386 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart of Dirleton, indicated in an earlier amendment...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c386 (Link to this contribution)

Well, my Lords, I recollect the discussion last week between the noble and learned Lord and my no...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c387 (Link to this contribution)

Do I take it, then, that the Government’s position reflects the speech made by the noble Lord, Lo...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c387 (Link to this contribution)

No, but I think that the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, summed up the Government’s position rather wel...

Lord Coaker | 836 c387 (Link to this contribution)

Before the Minister sits down, I have a practical question. He says that this will apply retrospe...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c387 (Link to this contribution)

I appreciate that the noble Lord asked me about this in the debate last week as well. I will not ...

Lord Scriven | 836 c387 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who took part in this group of amendments. It has been an inter...

Lord Etherton | 836 c388 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Etherton

38: Clause 4, page 4, line 12, after “question” insert “or, wh...

Lord Etherton | 836 cc388-391 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in speaking to this amendment I will speak to Amendments 40, 43, 45 and 51, which I tab...

Lord Cashman | 836 cc389-393 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am in favour of the amendments in this group, including that in the name of my noble ...

Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws | 836 cc393-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support the two amendments just mentioned by my noble friend Lord Cashman. I remind t...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 cc394-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have added my name to these amendments. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, sp...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 836 cc395-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we heard this debate opened with great clarity and legal exactitude by my noble and lea...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 836 cc396-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is a pleasure, as always, to follow the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. On this occasion, ...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c397 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I strongly support the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, which he...

Lord Scriven | 836 cc397-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support the amendments in this group and seek to tease out a couple of answers from t...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 836 cc398-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this group is concerned with members of specific social groups. I welcome the points ma...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 cc399-401 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as we have previously set out, the purpose of the Bill is to stop the boats and end the...

Lord Etherton | 836 cc401-2 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to the Minister for his reply and to those who have spoken. What the debate ha...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 836 c402 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Chakrabarti

39: Clause 4, page 4, line 12, leave out from “question...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 836 c402 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this group goes to the heart of domestic, constitutional, rule-of-law concerns about th...

Baroness Hale of Richmond | 836 cc402-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall explain why I am proud to support this vital group of amendments to Clause 4 pr...

Bishop of Chichester | 836 c404 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my noble friend the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury regrets that he ...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 836 c404 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I very strongly support what has been said but want to draw attention to the statement,...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c405 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I rise very briefly on that point to support the noble Baroness. We have heard in previ...

Lord Deben | 836 cc405-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I rise to support these amendments for a very fundamental reason. The separation of pow...

Baroness Whitaker | 836 c406 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I want to follow the remark made by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, when she...

Lord Coaker | 836 cc406-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow my noble friend Lady Whitaker, who reminded us of the ...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 cc407-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions to an interesting debate on this i...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c409 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Minister for stating clearly that the Government of Rwanda have begun puttin...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c409 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, on the passing of the Bill, the Act will decree that Rwanda is safe. Just because work ...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c409 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister just said that Rwanda is becoming safer, but in his earlier comments he said that it...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c409 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, what I said was that on the passing of the Bill, Rwanda is safe. What I say is that it ...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c409 (Link to this contribution)

You said that the safeguards had to be in place.

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c409 (Link to this contribution)

I did not. I said that just because safeguards have not yet been fully put in place, it does not ...

Lord Deben | 836 c409 (Link to this contribution)

If Rwanda is not safe now, but it will be safe, then the period between now and the point at whic...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c410 (Link to this contribution)

I reiterate my previous answer: the fact that further work is being done does not mean that the s...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c410 (Link to this contribution)

I have one final point for the Minister. If this legislation decrees on Royal Assent that Rwanda ...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c410 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, any work being done to improve a place is desirable of itself.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c410 (Link to this contribution)

Does the Minister still stand by the assurance from the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom, that no...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c410 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend Lord Sharpe confirmed to me a moment ago that the monitoring committee is already...

Baroness Wheatcroft | 836 c410 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the monitoring committee consists of four people, two of whom are apparently in the pay...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 cc410-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in the first instance, the monitoring committee consists of not four but eight people. ...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 836 c411 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister may be about to speak on this but I did ask a specific question as to the Government...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c411 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Baroness indeed anticipated me as I was turning to that point. As she says, the noble L...

Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 836 c411 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Minister answer a very simple question? Did the United Kingdom vote for the High Commiss...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c411 (Link to this contribution)

Whether or not we as a country voted for him to take his place does not exclude the possibility o...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c411 (Link to this contribution)

I am encouraged by the noble and learned Lord’s statement that the monitoring committee is up and...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c411 (Link to this contribution)

That is the information given to me, but I am happy to look into the matter to reassure the noble...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c411 (Link to this contribution)

Is it that it has recruited a support team, or that it is up and running?

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c412 (Link to this contribution)

The point I am making is that I have been told the body is up and running. That does not touch on...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c412 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister is being generous in giving way, but what he just said contradicts what he said prev...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c412 (Link to this contribution)

The point I was making was in answer to the point raised earlier in the debate by noble Lords, wh...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c413 (Link to this contribution)

But it is absolutely clear from the policy statement, and from answers that the Home Secretary ga...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c413 (Link to this contribution)

I think the terms of Article 9 of the treaty are clear. The Act comes into force the day that the...

Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 836 c413 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Minister answer a couple of rather simple questions? Has he read the Rwandan legislation...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c413 (Link to this contribution)

The answer to the former is that it does not fall to me to read the Rwandan legislation; but, giv...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c413 (Link to this contribution)

The Advocate-General for Scotland may not be the right person to express a view in relation to Rw...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c413 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will look into that. Presumably, the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office wil...

Lord Coaker | 836 c413 (Link to this contribution)

Could the Minister confirm, for the benefit of all of us, that the Home Office team in charge of ...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c413 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, what I have said was that I have not seen the Home Office legislation. I have not been ...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c413 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I would be keen to know what is the basis for the noble and learned Lord’s assertion th...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c414 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it has been a matter that has been canvassed exhaustively already, but it flows from th...

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 836 c414 (Link to this contribution)

Could the Minister tell us whether the draft Rwandan law exists?

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c414 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, again, if the noble Lord is asserting that the relevant Rwandan legislation is a figmen...

Lord Coaker | 836 c414 (Link to this contribution)

If there is no risk of refoulement because of all those processes, all the legislation and all th...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c415 (Link to this contribution)

If the noble Lord were to be threatened with refoulement, it could only happen to him once the Bi...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c415 (Link to this contribution)

I am very concerned with what the Minister has literally just told us. The Minister has just said...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c415 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the Government are working with the Government of Rwanda to implement new protections t...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 836 c415 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Minister, who has been very patient with so many concerned Members of the Co...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c415 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the treaty guarantees that anyone relocated to Rwanda will be given safety and support ...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 cc415-6 (Link to this contribution)

I do not think that the Minister has taken on board what the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, asked him. ...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c416 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the point is that the treaty, while it has not been ratified, is a matter of agreement....

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 836 c416 (Link to this contribution)

Further to the Minister’s answer to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, does the system—th...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c416 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am not fully clear that I follow the import of the question that the noble Lord poses...

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 836 c416 (Link to this contribution)

Forgive me: I am just trying to understand the Minister’s position on the point raised by the nob...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c416 (Link to this contribution)

The system has been agreed and will come into place along with the treaty.

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 836 c416 (Link to this contribution)

Could the Minister then tell us what that system is? When will the House see that system? It woul...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 cc416-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will expand on the matter in the correspondence to which I referred the noble Lord.

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 836 c417 (Link to this contribution)

Under CRaG, the scrutiny period for the treaty has now been concluded, so, for clarification, whe...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c417 (Link to this contribution)

That is a decision not for me to take. It will be taken by the Government collectively. I am not ...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c417 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister just referred to the independent experts who are going to help the Rwandans in relat...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c417 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, that is a matter of detail upon which I will have to correspond with the noble and lear...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 cc417-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords—before the Minister sits down—it becomes crucial to know when this Act will come into fo...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 836 c418 (Link to this contribution)

I cannot go beyond the terms of the clause to which the noble and learned Lord refers. Clause 9(1...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 836 cc418-9 (Link to this contribution)

As always, I am grateful to the Committee for its deliberations, but on this occasion I am partic...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 836 cc419-420 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, in due course.

I say to the Minister that I am sure the Committee is very grateful for...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 836 c420 (Link to this contribution)

He or she or they—I have sort of admitted that it was a gentleman. He said to me that he had hear...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 836 c420 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Lister of Burtersett

46: Clause 4, page 4, line 22, at end insert—<...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 836 cc420-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am moving Amendment 46 as an understudy to my noble friend Lord Dubs, who apologises ...

Baroness Neuberger | 836 cc424-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support the noble Baronesses, Lady Lister of Burtersett and Lady Brinton, and the rig...

Bishop of Chelmsford | 836 cc426-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I too support Amendments 54 and 55, to which I have added my name. I thank the noble Ba...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c427 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I strongly back the amendment of my noble friend Lady Lister, supported by the noble Ba...

Baroness Mobarik | 836 cc428-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support Amendment 55, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett, s...

Baroness Lawlor | 836 c429 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the purpose of this measure is to deter immigration by unsafe and illegal routes. Your ...

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 836 cc429-430 (Link to this contribution)

I do not entirely follow the argument of the noble Baroness. If an individual is trafficked acros...

Baroness Brinton | 836 cc430-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I signed Amendments 54 and 55. I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Lister and Lady Neube...

Lord Green of Deddington | 836 c432 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall be brief but I will widen my remarks beyond just children. The Committee has ma...

Baroness Brinton | 836 c432 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise for not being able to rise to intervene. I am grateful to the noble Lord.

The G...

Lord Green of Deddington | 836 cc432-3 (Link to this contribution)

I understand that but I said at the beginning of my speech that I was going to range more widely....

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 836 c433 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Green. For my part, I agree with...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 836 cc433-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this group has been about children. We spoke at length during the passage of the then I...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 cc434-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this debate, which, as we have heard, ...

Baroness Brinton | 836 c436 (Link to this contribution)

When I spoke earlier, I asked whether the scientific age assessment had been introduced. The Mini...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c436 (Link to this contribution)

Yes. Basically, all individuals will also have access to interpreters. There will be appropriate ...

Baroness Brinton | 836 c436 (Link to this contribution)

I am very sorry, but the language here is important. An appropriate adult need not necessarily be...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 cc436-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this is a new and obviously complex process, and the full plans for integrating scienti...

Baroness Brinton | 836 c437 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise for intervening again, but the Minister referred to the AESAC’s report, which is now ...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c437 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as I pointed out in answer to the previous intervention, the system is still being desi...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c437 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry if that upsets the noble Baroness, but I do not know the precise answer. I will find o...

Baroness Brinton | 836 c437 (Link to this contribution)

I am very sorry for intervening and grateful to the Minister for giving way. We are now back to t...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c438 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the Government fundamentally disagree with that; we do provide protection for children....

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c438 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise for also intervening. I was very interested in much of the answer that the Minister g...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c438 (Link to this contribution)

No. As I understand it, the judicial review will take place when a person has been relocated to R...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c438 (Link to this contribution)

I am very interested in that answer, too. Surely that is not right. If a judicial review is possi...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c438 (Link to this contribution)

I have to respect the noble and learned Lord’s point of view on that; I am afraid that I am not a...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 836 c438 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend the Minister might want to make reference to the powers that this Parliament has ...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c438 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend is right; I might very well want to refer to that.

Baroness Hamwee | 836 c438 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, when the noble Lord, Lord Murray, referred to this in his contribution, he used the ter...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 cc438-9 (Link to this contribution)

I am not in a position to agree or disagree, because I do not know how the judicial review proces...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 836 c439 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps the Minister can clarify this since he is answering my questions. Are we talking about he...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c439 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as we discussed in previous groupings, with any of these decisions and any of the evalu...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 836 c439 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry, it does not. I raised a concern, asking a specific question: how can the Government b...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 cc439-441 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I cannot give details on the very specific question about traumatised children but I wi...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 836 c440 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the Minister did not deal with the question—perhaps understandably—about how this House...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 836 c440 (Link to this contribution)

I reassure the noble and learned Lord that we will have an answer by the end of the evening.

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 836 cc440-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful to everyone who has spoken. I hope those who spoke in support of the amen...

Lord Green of Deddington | 836 c442 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Baroness is probably right that the public are not focused on children, still less on t...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 836 c442 (Link to this contribution)

I remind noble Lords that it is illegal only because we made it illegal in the legislation that p...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 836 c442 (Link to this contribution)

There is nothing wrong with sending adults, I said rhetorically, because that is the effect of Se...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 836 cc442-3 (Link to this contribution)

We are talking about children who have been wrongly assessed. I do not think it is reasonable to ...

Back to top