My Lords, I will speak to my Amendments 57 and 58. They are obviously probing amendments but may generate a little discussion because they are none the less important.
Let me begin by saying that I accept absolutely what the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, said about the important of ensuring the secrecy of much of what our security services and others do. That is an important statement of principle, and it was reinforced by my noble friend Lord Murphy when he recounted, as far as he could, some of the responsibility he had in his posts, particularly as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. It is important to establish that I accept that principle.
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With respect to my amendments, we are not talking about anything that would seek to compromise that fundamental principle. I was moved to table these amendments because of what the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, said in his excellent review, which we have all accepted. He spoke about the need to think about how we generate public understanding and support around what the intelligence services do. I thought it was important to explore that a little. Those of you have read the report will know that the noble Lord goes into quite significant detail about the importance of trying
to generate that understanding. As I have said before about the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham- Buller, and her contribution, and that of the noble Lord, Lord Evans, and others, including the current Director General of MI5, they have tried to move into the modern world and to put out what they can, as far as is reasonably possible. All I am trying to say is that, in a democracy, there is a responsibility on government to try to explain some of the things that happen—even to explain why some things cannot be put out into the public domain. People will understand that, but they deserve the effort on our part.
As the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, says:
“It helps if there is some general understanding in political and media circles about the sorts of activities digital spies undertake, and why. These words are a standing reminder that in areas of legitimate public debate, particularly where fundamental rights are at stake, silence on the part of those with privileged knowledge is a comfort zone that needs to be continuously challenged”.
I think that is right. By challenging that, it forces the system to think about and understand what could be put out there to advance our understanding. It is not only about transparency; it is about understanding why that work takes place. The police and others often say that, where the public understand that, it creates a better atmosphere within which activities can take place, and better support for them. That is all I am seeking to do with the amendment: to understand the Government’s view of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, in his review.
I cannot resist quoting “the Ronan Keating doctrine” —I am not going to sing it—where the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, refers to
“the false comfort taken by some security professionals in the traditional notion that ‘you say it best when you say nothing at all’”.
You can see why I did not sing it, but it makes a very serious point in a humorous way.
It is important for us all to consider that sometimes in a democracy its strength is where you draw the line between what the security services can quite rightly keep secret so as to operate in a way which protects their work and, as far as possible, trying to explain to the public what is happening and why it is happening. For example, until a few years ago, I do not remember it ever being put in the public domain how many incidents had been prevented by the work of the security services. It is helpful that they tell us that X number of attacks have been prevented as a result of what they have done. That was always kept secret in the past, and is now put in the public domain.
I will not detain your Lordships much with respect to Amendment 58. Again, it is based on what the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, included within his report. All it seeks to do is ask where we go to next and what the Government’s thinking is with respect to this. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, points out the pace of technological change and the interaction between all of us—look at our own mobile phones compared to a few years ago. I do not know quite how legislation will keep pace with all of that and give our security services, counterterrorism police and others the tools that they need to operate and be effective as technology is changing. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, almost points to the fact that a whole new block of legislation is needed. That is probably true. Whatever happens at
the next election, there is a need for the Government of the day, whoever they are, to look at what is happening and at whether changes are needed, and at whether the legislation is as effective as it might be. As I say, the mobile phone is the obvious example, but it is very difficult to know where we are going with respect to artificial intelligence and what that means for the legislation, the work of the security services and how we ensure that they have the tools necessary to conduct their operations and keep us safe.
The last point I will make is that it always seems to me that the interconnectivity of the world must be really difficult when it comes to the legislative process. The movement of data and telecommunications across continents, let alone between countries and jurisdictions, must be incredibly difficult. As I say, Amendment 58 is simply another probing amendment to ask the Government what their view is and what their thoughts are about where the legislation goes to next.