My Lords, one of the problems that those of us who have been very involved in the planning system are having is that we cannot see how this all fits together and works in practice. In her last statement, the Minister said that local authorities know their area best, and those who have been involved in this system would certainly agree with that but, as we go through the process of looking closely at the Bill, it is getting more rather than less confusing.
We had a good discussion and some key issues have emerged, first around how little detail there is about the hierarchy of this new planning process. I accept that the Minister has offered to have a round table with us to discuss what that structure looks like and to listen to more of our concerns about how this is going to work in practice. There was a great deal of consideration of the issues around the strategic development plans for these new CCAs. A lot of work will go into the joint working on those strategic development plans, with their constituent members and partners. They reflect the significant new powers that they will have over transport, environment and issues relating to some other public bodies—potentially health, policing and so on. Some of us are struggling to understand why, after all the work that has gone in, there may be
an intervention from the Government via the NDMPs to say that the planning process has to be intervened in or overturned. That is also of concern.
Another element was the consideration of whether this would be different depending on whether an up-to-date plan is in place or not. That is a key consideration and I accept the point from the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, that it may make a great difference as we go through the consideration of how these plans will work and what the review requirements are. We made the point in previous discussions, and I will make it again, that the big difference between the NPPF and the new NDMP is that the NPPF is guidance. As we have discussed previously, it can be flexible to local needs and often is, whereas the NDMP is going to be statutory. For example, how would it deal with applications made within the green belt? These are some of the practical issues with which some of us are wrestling, and I hope that a round-table discussion helps clear some of that up.
The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, gave a very clear exposition of how he sees the word “significant” making a difference. I appreciate that. Of course, lawyers will be lawyers—I know there are some in this Chamber, so I will not take this line too far—but they embrace any words that can be interpreted in different ways, as we know. Those of us who have been in legal battles around these things before have the scars to show for it. My concern about that amendment was simply that it would result in a great deal of litigation.
We were discussing the planning powers of constituent local authorities and, of course, the role of these new CCAs will be very different from the role of either district councils, when they are doing their local plan, or county planning authorities, when they do things such as mineral and waste plans. I think we need some careful consideration of how those much more strategic plans will relate to NDMPs.
I have commented on the point from the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, about up-to-date plans; I think, where we have one, they should take precedence. The Minister also talked about how, if the neighbourhood plan is more up to date than the local plan, the neighbourhood plan would take precedence. By logic then, if the local plan is more up to date than the NDMP and there is a conflict between them, the local plan should take precedence. I cannot see why one would apply and the other would not.
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The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, referred to the issue around councillors’ powers over planning, and lots of them feeling that these have been diminished over the years. She referred specifically to businesses in the local high street. We all suffer the pain of that, as we see the use classes widen out and councillors almost unable to make any decisions about what is or is not in their local high street.
I have a particular case in my own borough around housing development. We had a very beautiful and attractive building, which everybody loved, and a developer put in a housing application. It ended up at the High Court and, in spite of the wishes of local people, councillors and everyone else at a local level, planning
law meant that it could not be determined locally, and it was found in favour of the housing developer. These sorts of things happen. I am not quoting my example particularly; I know that this happens all over the country. Local decision-making should have primacy. From what I have heard in this Chamber, everybody wants to see this new system ensure that that is the case.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, as ever, for her very detailed explanation of how she has been thinking through these aspects, particularly of Clauses 86 and 87. The fact that the NDMPs are drawn up with no consultation or parliamentary scrutiny is a key point in all of this. She raised the important issue of whether local plans could be found unsound if they are not in compliance with NDMPs, which goes to the points of the noble Lord, Lord Young. We are not talking about application stage here; we are talking about the point at which there is a local plan inspection going on, and how that would work. If local variance can be taken into account, to what extent is that the case with the difference between the local plan and the NDMPs? She mentioned the importance of having a feedback loop for tackling issues where there have been conflicts between different plans at different levels.
Importantly, the noble Baroness raised the issue of how the Government will incentivise councils to keep plans up to date. My concern is that NDMPs may prove to be the exact opposite—a disincentive. If the NDMPs will always take precedence, local councils may decide that that is another reason not to proceed with the renewal of their local plan when it is due. I agree that safeguards will be needed for such a centralised system.
This has been a detailed and really useful debate—even though, as I said before, as we go further into discussing the aspects of planning, it brings up more questions and confusion. The Minister said that she expects such conflicts between plans to be limited. If they will be as rare as hen’s teeth, it will surely not be too onerous to report on them and have them determined, or at least explored, by some kind of parliamentary scrutiny.
At its heart, the issue around conflicts is leading to concern because of not understanding how the plans fit with one another. I hope that, at some point in the very near future, we will have the opportunity to have a discussion around how the parts of the system will fit together. I look forward to that. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.