I will refer specifically to Amendment 29, in the names of my noble friend Lady Humphreys and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. The Welsh Government and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee of the Senedd have both examined the Bill closely and they did not like what they saw. They agree with each other that the Senedd’s consent is required for all clauses and schedules, with the exception of Clause 18. However, given the background of a lack of consultation and dialogue, to which several noble Lords referred, we are not likely to get that consent.
The problem is that the Bill does not just infringe on devolved powers—it tramples all over them. The Welsh Government have called it a “power grab”. The injury to devolution throughout the Bill is compounded by the lack of preparation and background information provided by the Government. These issues have been well rehearsed here—the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, referred to them in detail. The Welsh Government and the Senedd committee agree that, for a start, Clause 2 needs to be amended to grant Welsh Ministers similar powers to those granted to UK Ministers to extend the sunset date in relation to devolved matters.
On sunsetting, June 2026—the fallback date—is of maximum practical inconvenience to the devolved Administrations because it coincides with elections. There are two possibilities for how the date was plucked out of the air: one is that it was chosen deliberately to make life difficult for the devolved Administrations, and the other—I agree that this is probably more likely—is that it is an example of the sort of poor, substandard legislation that you write when you do not consult the people affected. It would have been so easy to choose a different date.
The Senedd committee’s report reflects concerns already expressed about deficiencies in the dashboard and emphasises the need for it
“to identify how each piece of retained EU law falls across reserved and devolved competencies.”
Without doubt, it is essential that, when Welsh and Scottish REUL is added to the dashboard, it is clearly identified. So when will this happen? Can it be confirmed that this will happen? If it does not happen, that means that this truly is a Government just for England. It is essential that Wales and Scotland legislation is identified.
The committee’s report also emphasised the pressure of time, both on legislatures and the Governments in Scotland and Wales. It is essential that all REUL that the Government do not intend to save or reform is identified by the end of September and laid before all the legislatures of the UK.
Amendment 49, in my name and that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, is designed to probe these issues. The Welsh Government have made no secret of the pressure they are under—other noble Lords have referred to that—and the Minister acknowledged in her response to me last week that there was an issue of resources. The simple time pressure is compounded by the lack of coherent information from the Government. It is more difficult to get on and do what you are supposed to be doing if you do not know what that is. What will the Government’s policy be in relation to any failure by a devolved Administration to update their chosen items of REUL and obliterate as required references to EU law? They might choose not to do it, or they might just not have the time to do it. Does that mean that the UK Government will take over the role of the devolved Administrations and take things out of their hands if by mistake or due to lack of resources they cannot get round to it?
As I understand it, the devolved Administrations are also required to search for REUL made by Secretaries of State prior to devolution, which seems tantamount to having to do the job of the UK Government for them. Have I got that right? Can it be clarified, please?
As many noble Lords have said, the state of the dashboard is central to the pressures that I have referred to. The latest count of Welsh REUL on the dashboard is apparently in the teens. I am assured that when they have counted it all it will be in the many hundreds, and the Government have not yet been able to take account of that situation. What estimate do the Government have of how many hundreds of pieces of REUL both Scotland and Wales will have? It will be different numbers, obviously, because law has developed differently, and they have different powers. I noted in an earlier debate that the Government have failed to clarify when or even if we will get a final list, when or even if we will be told what legislation is to be dropped entirely, and when or even if we will be given a definitive list of legislation to be amended. All this is essential not just to us here doing our work but to both the Scottish and Welsh legislatures, and I hope that it will in time be relevant and important to the Northern Ireland Assembly as well when it is up and running.
On Northern Ireland, I do not want to repeat the vital questions asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and my noble friend Lady Ludford, but I emphasise the importance of them. In the past 36 hours or so, I have been trying to get my head around the implications for this Bill of the Windsor Framework by working through a couple of examples—not quite at the level of detail with which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, did so, but in my own humble way. I think that the Windsor Framework probably requires substantial rewriting of this Bill; it certainly requires substantial reinterpretation—I understand that because it is such a skeletal Bill it might be possible to bend it
to the new circumstances, but we need a new interpretation. Please can we at the very least have a major ministerial Statement on the impact of Windsor Framework on REUL which has an impact on the Stormont brake? The three are intertwined. We need more than a letter; we need the opportunity to ask questions and to understand how it will work.
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Finally, Amendment 36 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Bruce is designed to get some answers about the role of common frameworks. They have been addressed comprehensively by, among others, the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, as chair of the committee of which I am a member. The UK Government and the devolved Administrations have worked for nearly three years on developing the frameworks. They are designed as a mechanism for managing divergence within the UK internal market—that comes to the issue that the noble Lord opposite raised. They promote discussion and include a mechanism for dispute resolution. In one of the useful ministerial briefings we have had, we were told that the Government saw common frameworks as the main mechanism for managing changes resulting from the Bill, but their role is not specified. All changes made to retained EU law within one specific area covered by common frameworks should be taken through the full common frameworks process before it is either saved, sunsetted or revoked.
In Wales, the Senedd committee consulted stakeholders broadly. The people affected by this—everyone from NFU Cymru to the Food Standards Agency and the Food and Drink Federation—expressed concern at the lack of common frameworks in the Bill and the lack of reference to them and role for them. They noted that there was no trigger for the common frameworks committee process to be engaged and that the Bill threatens to undermine common frameworks as a result. In contrast to what was stated in the meeting that I have just referred to, they see this as something that is at risk rather than to be implemented. I urge the Government to table amendments to the Bill to clarify the situation. If they decide to allow a piece of REUL to lapse at sunset, when will the devolved Administrations and stakeholders be informed and consulted? How will the common frameworks process be implemented in that decision in order that they have some right to make comments?
There have been many excellent speeches. I urge Ministers to respond in detail, if necessary by letter, to the complex questions raised—it is invidious to pick out particular speeches, but the noble and learned Lords, Lord Hope and Lord Thomas, raised very important questions, as did the noble Baronesses, Lady Andrews and Lady Ritchie, and my noble friend Lady Ludford. There are issues of resources, a need for a saving clause, the problem of inadvertent errors and the role of common frameworks—a lot of homework for Ministers over the weekend, I fear.