My Lords, we have had some important and informed contributions from many noble Lords across the Chamber. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, and the usual channels for ensuring that this debate could take place over a long period and not be curtailed to a couple of hours. Given the significance and importance of this issue, the Government are to be congratulated for enabling the debate to happen this quickly. Given the significance of what happened yesterday, it was also fortuitous.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, for the informed remarks that started this debate so well. However, it would be remiss of me not to start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Soames, and welcoming him to the Chamber; it is nice to see him here. I think he got here under better circumstances than me. We are all delighted he is here for all sorts of reasons, not least his informed opinions, his general courtesy and,
obviously, his lineage, which brings an important historical perspective. But in his own right, he has added considerable knowledge and experience to this debate, and he will no doubt do so in many other debates going forward. We are pleased that he is here with us, and I wish him good luck with his contributions in this House.
I also want to start from the point of view of unanimity, which is extremely important. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and my noble friend Lord Collins talked about the importance of symbolism. The television pictures that are beamed around the world and seen in so many countries are particularly important in these circumstances. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and my noble friend pointed out the importance of the Prime Minister Rishi Sunak being seen alongside Sir Keir Starmer and other leaders of our political parties. That is of huge significance and shows that, although we obviously have some questions for and points to make to the Government—as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, has rightly just done—that is done on the basis of unanimity. I take the well-made point of the noble Lord, Lord McDonald: this is an important debating Chamber, one of the most significant in the world, alongside the other place. An incredible number of people watch our proceedings. It sometimes does not feel like that, but it is watched by significant numbers of people across the world. It will be being watched and analysed for any sense of difference between us— and there is none.
Perhaps I may say one thing as an aside. We heard the lone voice of my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours. It is good that in our democracy, someone can stand up and say something, even if they are a lone voice. He was heard with courtesy and respect. I think I am right in saying that no one here agreed with him, but he had a right to say it. That is important, because there may be people listening in countries whose parliamentarians would be arrested and imprisoned if they expressed a view so contrary to that of their Government. My noble friend has an absolute right to say what he said. I totally disagree with him but that is not the point. In one sense—and the noble Lord, Lord McDonald, has more experience of these things than me—that symbolises what the conflict is about. This is an important conflict between those who would undermine democracy and those who would stand up for it.
It was a truly historic moment yesterday when so many of us gathered together to hear the inspirational words of President Zelensky—an occasion when he came to thank us, to ask for our continued support and to mention the need to provide Ukraine with the weapons it needs. It was also to restate what this battle, this conflict, this war is about.
I start my remarks by reiterating the importance of ensuring that Putin does not succeed. We can once again be proud that our country was among the first to support, and remains at the forefront of supporting, this battle for the rule of law and for the principle that force and aggression cannot be allowed to prevail. Our stand with Ukraine is for democracy, human rights and justice. This country has a proud tradition of standing up for those principles with our friends and allies, and we will do so once again in Ukraine as we have done so many times in our past.
It is a battle that is well understood not only here in Westminster but across our country. As President Zelensky will have witnessed, there is immense good will among our people to stand firm with the people of Ukraine. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham highlighted that point, as did many others, including the noble Lord, Lord Risby, just now. The British people understand that it is not just us in Westminster who believe that this is important; they understand that the Ukrainian fight is our fight, that their battle is our battle, and that the battle for democracy and freedom in Kyiv, Ukraine and beyond is the front line for us as well. It is a struggle for democracy and is therefore our struggle.
As many noble Lords have pointed out, Putin believed the West to be weak. He believed that we would cave in, that we would not stand with Ukraine, that we would be frightened and intimidated. He made many miscalculations but this was clearly one of the biggest. Instead of dividing us, we are more united than ever in our belief and our desire to see this through. We will do all we can to see it through.
Let it be seen that we will stand up against aggression, intimidation and those who undermine the rule of law not only here in Europe. As others have said, this has lessons for us in the rest of the world as well. Tyranny, oppression and dictatorship cannot win, and our fight in Ukraine sets out to prove that.
We must redouble our efforts, act even more urgently and respond quickly to new threats from Russia, supporting Ukraine in every way we can. The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, pointed out some of the difficulties. I do not know how the Minister will respond, but there is clearly a need for urgency and for things to happen as quickly as possible. The Challenger 2 tanks must get there quickly, and training must happen and new demands must be responded to as quickly as possible. The Government will need to explain to us how they will meet these new demands as urgently as they can.
We also need to consider what the review of our independent review should say. We were going to cut the number of our battle tanks; that was in the review. Clearly we must now review that. We were going to undertake other changes to our equipment. We have said that technological improvement is more important than mass. The noble and gallant Lords, Lord Stirrup and Lord Craig, will know far better than me that the Typhoon is a brilliant aircraft, and the F35B is great, but what about the mass of aircraft? Is there more we can do to have more of this equipment in the short term? If we give aircraft or other equipment away, how do we replenish it quickly? Where will it come from? You cannot build a tank or an aircraft in a year. If we want to up our supply and capabilities, how are we going to do that?
Those are the questions that the Government need to answer. As the noble and gallant Lords, Lord Craig and Lord Stirrup, and the noble Lords, Lord Soames and Lord Bilimoria, pointed out, they are important considerations for us. What does that mean for a defence budget? There will have to be a debate about what it actually means and the difficulties of that. If we want more money, where will it come from? Are we
going to have a sensible debate about how we achieve that? Again, those are matters for the future, but a debate and discussion will have to be had.
There are many other things that could be said. I join my noble friend Lord Robertson, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, and the noble Lords, Lord Soames, Lord Hannay and Lord Howell, and many others in hoping that the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, can say something about this issue in a few minutes: there is a real problem about explaining in other parts of the world what I have just been saying about what we are doing with respect to Ukraine. It is not just some dictatorships in Africa; we have problems with India, Israel, South Africa and other countries that may not be against what we are doing but are certainly not keen advocates of it and worry about it. How are we trying to deal with that, discuss it and win the narrative?
Although I cannot remember which noble Lord raised this, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, that the idea that we should cut the BBC World Service is a very bad one. At a time when the dissemination of accurate information across the airwaves in different languages to different people is so important, the idea that that is not an absolute priority, at what is a minimal cost, beggars belief. I know the Minister will not be able to answer that now, but I ask him to take it back.
I finish where I started. Their battle is our battle. We are proud to stand with the people of Ukraine. The unity of this Parliament is something that should resound right across Europe and certainly in Moscow. There is no difference between us. We are prepared to see this through, and we will do so.
5.32 pm