UK Parliament / Open data

Public Order Bill

Lords committee stage first day. Clause 1 under consideration. (Part 1 of 2).
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
825 cc890-949 
Session
2022-23
Department
Home Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Legislative scrutiny: Public Order Bill. Joint Committee on Human Rights first report.
Wednesday, 8 June 2022
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons
Public Order Bill 2022-23. Brought from the Commons.
Wednesday, 19 October 2022
Bills
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2022-0811
Friday, 18 November 2022
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2022-0816
Friday, 18 November 2022
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Show all related items (8)
Deposited Paper DEP2022-0832
Friday, 18 November 2022
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Public Order Bill. Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee seventeenth report.
Thursday, 3 November 2022
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Public Order Bill. Constitution Committee seventh report.
Wednesday, 9 November 2022
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Public Order Bill
Wednesday, 16 November 2022
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Chakrabarti | 825 c890 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Chakrabarti

1: Clause 1, page 1, line 5, at end insert “without rea...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 825 c890 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will rise slowly to allow the mass exodus from the Chamber of noble Lords who are fas...


Show all contributions (101)
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 825 c890 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to interrupt at such an early stage. My noble friend rightly said that she has the unh...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 825 cc891-2 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful, as always, to my noble friend, who has been a parliamentarian of distinction in bo...

Lord Paddick | 825 cc892-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have added my name to the other amendments in this group. If noble Lords will indulge...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 825 cc894-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I put my name to Amendments 1 and 7 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti...

Lord Skidelsky | 825 cc895-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am happy to add my name to the group of amendments in the name of the noble Baroness,...

Baroness Blower | 825 cc896-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Hendy has added his name to Amendment 60. In his unavoidable absen...

Lord Balfe | 825 cc897-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Blower, and even more of a pleasure...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 825 cc898-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Balfe. I absolutely agree with his fund...

Lord Horam | 825 cc899-900 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall follow up on precisely the point that the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, has just ma...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 825 c900 (Link to this contribution)

If I am to be corrected, I am, but may I just offer a view? It is an offence to wilfully obstruct...

Lord Paddick | 825 c900 (Link to this contribution)

Before the noble Lord continues, I ask him to point to the provisions in this Bill that make up f...

Lord Horam | 825 c900 (Link to this contribution)

The Bill addresses this point, but we could spend for ever on that. None the less, I understand t...

Lord Macdonald of River Glaven | 825 cc900-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the extent to which there are gaps in our current legislation that require filling by t...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 825 cc901-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall open by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, for setting the scene and the ba...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 825 c902 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, to which I have listened carefu...

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 825 c903 (Link to this contribution)

It appears from his general introduction that the Minister is going to proceed with this Bill. Su...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 825 c903 (Link to this contribution)

Well, I thank the noble Lord for that, and the answer is, of course, no.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 825 c903 (Link to this contribution)

That is a very clear answer. I wonder whether the Minister could give, perhaps, a sentence or two...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 825 cc903-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is reasonable to say at this point that we are about to have two days of quite detai...

Lord Paddick | 825 c904 (Link to this contribution)

Before the Minister continues, can he point to which part of this Bill would be deployed against ...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 825 cc904-5 (Link to this contribution)

Well, we are about to go into a good deal of discussion about things such as serious disruption, ...

Lord Skidelsky | 825 c905 (Link to this contribution)

Does the Bill define serious disruption?

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 825 c905 (Link to this contribution)

Again, we will come back to that in some detail in the debate on a later group. The amendments ha...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 825 c905 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Minister at some point explain to us why Section 78 of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 825 c905 (Link to this contribution)

I commit to doing that in the debate on a later group.

Lord Paddick | 825 c905 (Link to this contribution)

Can the Minister address the issue of people being arrested and detained, and being allowed to de...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 825 c905 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I think I have gone into reasonable detail on the reasonable excuse situation, so I wil...

Lord Paddick | 825 c905 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to disagree with the Minister, but he addressed the issue of whether the burden of pro...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 825 c905 (Link to this contribution)

I will come back to the noble Lord on that.

Baroness Hamwee | 825 c905 (Link to this contribution)

If the Minister is going to come back to my noble friend, could he do so in this Chamber? That qu...

Lord Paddick | 825 c906 (Link to this contribution)

This is Committee, so we are allowed this sort of debate. I want to reinforce what the noble Lord...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 825 c906 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I think I have already gone into that. As I say, the Bill creates another set of offenc...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 825 cc906-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am almost speechless. I do not blame the Minister, but those briefing him really need...

Lord Balfe | 825 c908 (Link to this contribution)

I suggest to my noble friend that it also leads to juries being less and less likely to convict b...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 825 c908 (Link to this contribution)

I could not agree more with the noble Lord, Lord Balfe. Again, it echoes something that the noble...

Lord Geddes | 825 c908 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, before calling Amendment 2, I must advise the Committee that if it is agreed to I will ...

Lord Paddick | 825 c908 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Paddick

2: Clause 1, page 1, line 10, leave out “, or is capable of cau...

Lord Paddick | 825 cc908-910 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in moving Amendment 2 in my name I will speak to the other 12 amendments in this group....

Lord Hope of Craighead | 825 cc909-911 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my name is to Amendments 6, 27 and 38, which have been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lor...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 825 cc911-2 (Link to this contribution)

I cannot sit still any more. I am starting to feel sorry for the Minister, who is on a very stick...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 825 c912 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will make a very serious request of the Minister, who is dealing with this difficult ...

Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham | 825 cc912-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in the absence of my right reverend friend the Bishop of St Albans, who is a signatory ...

Lord Skidelsky | 825 cc913-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I speak in support of Amendments 2 and 4 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, t...

Lord Hain | 825 cc914-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support most, if not all, of the amendments in this group seeking to circumscribe the...

Baroness Fox of Buckley | 825 cc916-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have put my name to Amendments 36 and 37 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick....

Lord Marlesford | 825 c917 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, having not spoken at Second Reading, but having listened to the debate, I want to contr...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 825 cc917-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hain, with his proud record of disruption, cautioned us against fo...

Lord Macdonald of River Glaven | 825 cc918-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as a former prosecutor, I commend Amendment 6 to the Minister. I have no doubt at all t...

Baroness Blower | 825 cc919-920 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti is unable to be in her place for this group, which aff...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 825 cc920-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak to the amendments in my name and the name of my noble friend Lord Coaker. ...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 825 c922 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I once again thank your Lordships for all the contributions made in this debate. We tur...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 825 cc922-4 (Link to this contribution)

The training of police— I am sorry.

The scope of the offences is drafted as such to ensure ...

Lord Hope of Craighead | 825 c924 (Link to this contribution)

Is there a prospect of the Minister coming up with definitions in time for Report, to prevent us ...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 825 c924 (Link to this contribution)

I will certainly endeavour to—I can make no promises. I am sorry: the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, ...

Lord Paddick | 825 cc924-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. The noble and learned L...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 825 c926 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

5: Clause 1, page 1, line 15, at end insert—

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 825 cc926-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am not going to describe all the amendments in this group. I am hoping that noble Lor...

Lord Beith | 825 c927 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Baroness has raised the absurdity of the locking-on offence and the problems ...

Lord Paddick | 825 cc927-930 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, on Amendment 5, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, we agree ...

Baroness Fox of Buckley | 825 cc928-931 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I put my name to a number of amendments, as the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, read out. He ...

Lord Skidelsky | 825 c931 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak briefly in support of Amendment 21 from the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, to w...

Lord Coaker | 825 cc931-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank those who have supported the various amendments in my name. I very much support...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 825 cc934-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this shortish debate. I have already spo...

Lord Beith | 825 c937 (Link to this contribution)

Can the Minister help the Committee by saying how he would answer this question, and if he has as...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 825 c937 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, these things are judged on a case-by-case basis. It would depend entirely on where I wa...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 825 c937 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I listened with great interest to the Minister’s reply to the Committee’s discussion on...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 825 c937 (Link to this contribution)

That is captured. As I say,

“A person commits an offence if they have an object with them i...

Lord Coaker | 825 c937 (Link to this contribution)

On this issue of intent, Clause 6 creates a criminal offence of obstructing “major transport work...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 825 c937 (Link to this contribution)

Not at this point, I will have to write to the noble Lord.

Lord Paddick | 825 c937 (Link to this contribution)

Bearing in mind the number of amendments, I worked out that the Minister spent 17 seconds per ame...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 825 cc937-8 (Link to this contribution)

I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. I have really enjoyed it and I think...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 825 c938 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

9: Clause 1, page 1, line 18, at end insert—

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 825 cc938-9 (Link to this contribution)

Again, I will just talk to my two amendments. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and I are pr...

Lord Hope of Craighead | 825 cc939-940 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall speak to my Amendments 11, 30, 34, 41, 57 and 63. That may seem a bit of a mout...

Lord Beith | 825 c940 (Link to this contribution)

Could the noble and learned Lord explain whether he thinks that phrasing the clause in this way d...

Lord Hope of Craighead | 825 cc940-1 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble Lord because I am coming on to deal with exactly that. Indeed, it lead...

Lord Judge | 825 cc941-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am very sorry that I was not able to speak at Second Reading. I shall be very brief. ...

Lord Paddick | 825 cc942-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I hesitate, as a non- lawyer, or even as someone who has never been a judge or magistra...

Lord Coaker | 825 cc943-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this is an interesting group of amendments. I will come to the amendments of the noble ...

Lord Hope of Craighead | 825 c944 (Link to this contribution)

The crucial point that I was trying to make is that we are dealing here with serious disruption. ...

Lord Coaker | 825 c944 (Link to this contribution)

I could not agree more; the issue of proportionality is exactly right. But this is difficult. I h...

Lord Coaker | 825 c945 (Link to this contribution)

And worse. Well, not quite worse, but I have done similar things, and that is the price you pay f...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 825 cc945-6 (Link to this contribution)

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this very interesting debate on this set of am...

Baroness Blower | 825 c946 (Link to this contribution)

Before the arrival of the Minister in the Chamber, the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, said that he woul...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 825 c947 (Link to this contribution)

Certainly, and I thank the noble Baroness for her question. It is important that we have clarity ...

Lord Paddick | 825 c947 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to the Minister for giving way. He just said that, in other parts of the Bill,...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 825 c947 (Link to this contribution)

In Clause 7, “Interference with use or operation of key national infrastructure”, one can see tha...

Lord Coaker | 825 c947 (Link to this contribution)

Is the Minister saying that you cannot lock on in the furtherance of a trade dispute but you can ...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 825 c947 (Link to this contribution)

Clearly, the provisions of the locking-on offence do not expressly contain the same provision. Th...

Baroness Blower | 825 c947 (Link to this contribution)

I just seek some clarification. In response to the speech I made earlier about picketing, and sin...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 825 c948 (Link to this contribution)

Can I confirm with my officials and write to the noble Baroness in respect of that point? My unde...

Lord Judge | 825 c948 (Link to this contribution)

While the Minister is conferring with his officials, can he suggest to them that they look at Cla...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 825 c948 (Link to this contribution)

I hear what the noble and learned Lord says, and I will certainly ask them.

I think that I ...

Lord Paddick | 825 c948 (Link to this contribution)

Can I just seek clarification on what the Minister said earlier about tunnels not constructed by ...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 825 c949 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. The short answer is that these cases are always goin...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 825 c949 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed. I enjoyed the critique of reasonable defe...

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